Welcome To Looking For The Long Ride
http://blog.lookingforthelongride.com
Terry Henry's Blog
One of my happiest times is with my wife at the NC Museum of Art. This is me last year. I am in still in process. Visit my website at: Looking For The Long Ride
Also: Reluctant Servant
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Our lives DO have a moderator moving us from one event to the next, and you! are it, on this particular day, propelling us with your reflective voice-over back through the time-warp of mid-60s memory and cherished youth. Thanks, Terry. We do have lives well-lived, by the grace of God. Let's see some more gold dust from that old prospector's pan.
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I read and enjoy, as well. Though I don't always comment.
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You make me laugh my friend. On second or third reading, you are right.
It is the best of times.
Somehow the blog bug has bitten me again. I can only hope to live up to your great reviews.
Peace.
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That's an elegantly simple, informative lead-in:
"Several years ago I worked as a newsman/photographer for a twice weekly local newspaper called the Jefferson Times."
...not quite as potent as "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
But keep working on it. I like tracking along with your thoughts and recollections, which always are shown to be meaningful. Terry, you have lived--are living-- a fascinating life--one that is adventurous, very full, and quite productive.
Keep those stories and ruminations coming. I enjoy reading them, and am encouraged to think that so many others can participate vicariously in your unique, long ride.
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The Lord covers your life like clover on the back .40, and that's the greatest blessing of all, along with them grand-young'uns. Thanks for sharin'. Ride on!
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The truth in love is a no-fail plan.
Enjoyed your post.
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That's well-said. I feel you have more insight to impart on this, and would like to hear more about it.
Your final point, that success or wholeness in life is related to not being dependent on others' approval, is true. Nevertheless, the review of our output by people whom we respect, and their response (critical and/or approving or both), is a necessary element for evaluating our output and sharpening its delivery.
I am so glad you persisted in your effort to communicate this.
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To jump into that swift current, hoping that we land right, is so much better than to have never jumped at all.
In cyclical terms, launching into the long ride with a helmet of salvation keeps our noggins protected from a fate worse than death if we wipe-out, so its ok to get a little risky on the curves.
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When my mom remarried in 1968, I was soon to be thirteen. We moved in with my new step-dad. His home was a trailer. It had two bedrooms, so a bit bigger than your grandma's. We lived in the middle of a 40 acre plot which belonged to my new step-uncle(is there such a thing?). I lived there with them until I was 18 and off to college.
It definitely shaped my view of myself; and though I never connected it with choices I make today, I am comfortable with small spaces.
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Walk on! I love to hear the birds. In morning and evening the sun's gold-pink dapples the tree barks and the path ahead.
That's mountain light though. When Pat and I are in Raleigh we have a pleasant amble along the Lake Lynn path, starting right behind Pat's sister's house. Many folks jog and walk there, but that's part of the charm, and so communally different from the frontier silence that defines our Watauga sojourns.
I was wondering about...shells? in Ashe county?
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Good luck with that. Don't hold your breath. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, God is still on the throne; Jesus is alive as he ever was or will be, and he's living in you and me. We take up our cross an move forward.
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I am not sure I understand. But that's ok too.
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One of your most insightful responses...thanks for stopping by.
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So you're on your own now, same place you'll be when you stand before Him.
Know this: you are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Nothing that happens, or does not happen, in the church can alter that immutable truth.
Maybe its time you think outside the box you've put yourself into.
Just sayin'
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Poets search the pages of their imaginations endlessly, because they think that in them they will find eternal life.
But they will not.
They would not settle on redemption even if it struck them between the eyes.
Its the eternal quest, you see, with which they are enamored.
Not redemption itself--not settling in on one saving grace, no...
That would be too much like death itself.
So they forever turn the pages, seeking that next profundity.
Turn, turn, turn, until one day,
the last page is turned.
They will be startled at the rising of the saints.
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Two if by sea: Me too, you see.
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Jesus loves us; this we know. That truth is reason enough for celebration every morning, every evening, no matter the circumstances. Look at it this way: at least we're not in the situation that Dietrich Bonhoffer was in.
Therefore are we filled with worship: praise God from whom our many blessings flow, every day.
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Near as I can figure we're all on the road to Emmaus, only figuring the miracle out a little bit after the fact, but hey, we love the Lord who created us and give Him glory for all the good and the harvest and the kids that is great news about Kaydence. Happy New Year to Terry and Sandi and all your young'uns.
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Always liked Rilke, too.
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scared me too, faceless is antithesis to facebook.
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Glad you're back and that you had an enjoyable time!!
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We did not specifically make that a destination, although we probably walked right past it. We did however visit the 9/11 memorial museum on Vessey Street just off of Church Street. It has the architectural rendering of what the WTS site will look like when construction is finished.
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Did you see the site of the infamous Islamic Cultural Center?
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What is disturbing to me is that our foreign policy seems like just so many calculated chess moves.
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I think we should get out of there as soon as possible. However, there are two reasons why it will not happen.
1.) Oil and resources. There's too much $ riding on the dependence of millions of Americans turning that ignition key every morning. If the oil spigot gets cut off, we got real trouble, and the biggest reserves on the planet are underneath Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf. Thus, our leaders have made it first priority that we keep a definite, strong presence there to protect our interests.
2.) Since the US government is operating in hopeless deficit (broke), then our our own real power play on the world stage is to throw our around militarily. We're no longer king of the hill economically; that lead-dog role is passing to China. So now we play the only card we have left--the strongest (supposedly) military in the world.
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An original, I doth perceive
Wrote to clarify and not deceive
But to butter and relieve.
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Paper, Ink. (a poem, August 6, 2010)
Turn the next page of your life and see
what God hath done for me and thee.
In His forest our trunk is just a twig;
in time's annals ours is but a sprig,
or a fig.
He splinters all our branches into pulp,
with which each lifelong opus He doth sculpt
His created work He then commits to ink
so that our children's mem'ries of us will not sink,
I think.
If we become not pages in His book of yarns,
then perhaps he saws us and nails us into barns;
And noble are those woody projects with which he cleaves
His masterpiece of love among our leaves,
and us retrieves.
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And that my friend, just about sums it up. Everything seems a little to overwhelming and one thought leads me to another and another and another. Most times I don't know where to even begin knowing that I will not be able to cover much of what I am feeling in the few words that blog-world provides. Hope your summer is going well.
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Thanks for stopping by. Speaking of 10/10/10, I do need to get out and fertilize my corn and water the tomato plants.
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Hey!! Great to see you posting a blog.
As we look around us, every topic seems to be ringing its own alarm bell. We enjoyed the prosperity of the Twentieth Century, but now it is clear, those years were a prosperity produced from harmful practices in way too many areas.
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Seems like heresy to see "10/10/10" and "green revolution" in the same sentence.
What you're doing now is the real green revolution. Keep up the good work.
It's a long row to hoe, but future generations will thank you.
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yer still alive n kickin an thas good, praise God amighty.
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Nice reflection. Thanks for sharing it.
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You are most welcome...my time to share my thoughts has been limited lately but I see a patch of light up ahead.
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Nice post,
Keep up the good work,
Thanks for bringing this up
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Keep your fingers on that sentence thread;
it will lead you, in the long ride
of rocking chairs and wintry dread
to a warm April morning
where the crows will find better things to do
than with their cawing and their yapping
annoy you.
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I'm not only with you, I enough of a dreamer to believe the Body of Christ can function in such a way that we each sense we are functioning to our fullest potential--even as we serve His ends in all things.
Let's do it in Him.
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I hear ya about the debt thing. It's definitely a hindrance, but it's a choice we make. I believe that, as we get older, we become more facile at incorporating those (employment or whatever) constraints into our personal (God-written) life plan.
And I can say amen to this: "perhaps living out our faith in a moment by moment scenario is the most creative we can ever be. To be fully aware of the moment we are in and choosing to live in that supernatural realm with God."
Yes, that's what we're after, and it's the greatest art of all, appreciated first by the great audience of the One, and then perhaps by a few others along the way.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This is one of your greatest posts ever.
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"we are still earth bound and checking some things out. And in this attempt comes our music, our dance, our art and our poetry. The artistic urge seems to come from us not being completely comfortable in our skins ..."
So true, my friend. And I also appreciate your discernment in describing Martha's life/art:
"And in this creative stew she wasn't always embraced by the powers that be—anyone who dares to challenge or change the status quo has this hurdle to leap."
That tension between what is and what is becoming seems to be the very raw material of life itself, and hence art, as if art is squeezed out like olive oil dripping from the press...
or clay on the wheel beneath the master's hand, from pressure.
What's so amazing about our Originator is that He started with no raw material.
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I am blessed to have you as a friend.
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I enjoy reading your posts!!
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You are right...thankfullness should be the spiritual food that propels us along our way. I am thankful for our continued friendship.
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Two of your testimonies leap out at me, enabling me to partake of your joy:
~"If we can't be good to ourselves we can't give anything but our need to those around us. I want to be a giver..."
and
~getting your very own bed in J's house.
Methinks this is what is meant by blessings or harvest "hundredfold" in Scripture. Ain't life grand!
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Springsteen did a great job with the Seeger stuff. Interesting thing is that I liked the ones I liked Seeger doing and the songs I didn't, Springsteen doing them didn't make me like the ones I didn't. Comprendé
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Nice thoughts as usual Terry. Did you enjoy the Springsteen/Seeger Sessions cd?
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Sensing His hand in this perspective and actually living in it and reveling in the moment are two distinct places. I am aware of this process taking place but don't want to give the impression that I am already there/here. Yet, as a man thinks, so he is and the more we begin to believe in this fullness, the more we will inhabit it (me thinks?).
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How I long to hear all my brothers and sisters see this perspective for themselves!! Amen.
We are in Christ and He is complete. In that place there is nothing needing to happen for us to feel whole, wholly connected and always fulfilled. Yet, the journey with Him reveals glory unto glory; in each moment, the change at hand confirms He is new every morning.
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Godliness with contentment is great gain. I'm glad you've been able to settle into it. Some folks never do. Furthermore, haven't you heard? 60 is the new 30.
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Steve: thanks for stopping by. I hope you caught the Pauline reference to not having yet attained that which we aspire to. Yet we all have to start someplace. I remember a book by Ram Das (aka Richard Alpert, Tim Leary's friend) published in the late sixties. It was called "Be Here Now" and I have always thought he was on the right track if not a little (maybe a lot) looking in the wrong place for contentment. But the title says it all. Even in our conversations we do too little listening and too much crafting our own reply that we miss what's happening many times. Isn't that what dialogue and diplomacy is supposed to be all about—fully listening and then responding in kind. Anyway, my last ride was 25 miles and we took our time and explored new roads—it is always nice to hear from you.
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It is so hard to have some contentment in the moment. I'm always thinking "what else should I be doing" , making plans for when I wrap up my current project. I'll be happy or relieved when such and such has occurred. I'm happy or content when loved or appreciated, the warmth of accomplishment doesn't last too long.
I hope your ride was long this weekend,
Steve
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Those black and white rhythms are what connect the dots of our lives. Thanks
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Isn't childhood memory a strange and curious thing--like playing back an old b&w movie in your head. I was on the other end of the USA at that time, in the deep south. We lived in the outskirts b of Jackson, Mississippi. On summer evenings my dad would drive us the mile or so to a Frostop drive where we'd drink cold root beer from frosty mugs. Across the highway from the Frostop was a railroad track. The Illinois Central would come roarin' through at night, headed for Memphis and Chicago. I'd guess now that big diesel had pulled carloads of coal from up north to run the local power plant. But I never knew much about coal until I hit about 16 and heard Joan Baez singing the song about Joe Hill. By that time we had moved to Louisiana. The only thing i knew about Michigan was Detroit tigers, and Indiana? well, isn't that where lots of Indians live.
Later on, summer of 1970, I spent selling Websters dictionaries in Oak Hill Ohio, right on the Ohio River. I'll never forget the first time a country woman addressed me and and couple other guys as "you'uns." Boy was I sure destined to hear that phrase again.
Childhood memory, like old faded photographs...sometimes I don't even know if they're real or if I'm making part of it up in my head.
Thanks for the ride, brother.
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Terry,
I appreciate your take on how and why we hold to the past.
ded
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I will trade you one berry picking for one Beijing.
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Such is the bounty of the Lord, and the harvest that comes forth through godly parenting. Blessed be God our Father for making these joys available to us.
The ice creams and Starbucks are rich froth upon life's latte of delights.
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It is exquisite. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Your fruitful contemplations prod me gently toward deeper appreciation as I sit here in Beijing, far from the repose of our Blue Ridge mountain home. Blessed are you who seek out its hidden harvests as well as those for which you have labored.
We are like the birds who are fed by the Lord and Giver of life, though he enriches our feast so sweetly when we seek out the untrodden paths.
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May God and his rain and his sun be with you in the Spirit of His Son.
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Heirloom seeds are definitely the key to the success of future family farmers.....that is the seed catalog that I didn't end up ordering from. Don't cha know!
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hey longrideman
I hear what you're saying about the "dying culture," and the loss of down-home customer service. But you know what? It just might be that this whole economic turmoil that has blown by us like a maelstrom typhoon may leave behind some unforeseen opportunities. I don' know but I been told that if a feller was to think about his crop a little differently maybe he could make a few adjustments in the way he tends his back .40 acre, and then come out the other end of it long about October with some old-fashioned fertile seeds--not like the newfangled ones that they say can't generate second generation crops-- but good God-fearin' fertile seeds like Yosef used to plant-- for the next year ('10) and thereby fill the niche, in some small way that had previously been occupied by goodnight brothers or whomever it might have been that would have been providin those real good seeds not the ones like you get at the big box stores. I guess what I'm a tryin to say is that if there's a hole in the system maybe we (or you) can fill it locally and maybe even make a little mucho denaro in the process while doin the world a favor by gettin us back to some basic agricultural co-op or business before it became agribiz.
Or maybe not. I know you're a bizzy man. Anyway, if you got more than you can handle let me know and I'll lend a hand. If not, I'll pay cold hard depression-era greenbacks for any surplus taters and beans you might generate long about October.
Y'all come back now.
CR, author of Glass half-Full
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Many times less is more. Thanks for stopping by.
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Interesting bit. Great song. I enjoyed your insight as usual. Thanks.
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I am glad that you got the underlying message. I thought about going into all that historical detail (the wobblies, the blacklisting, etc.) but thought better of it. After Pete had been on the "prime time" blacklist for many years, Sandi and I were watching a Sesame Street episode in 1981 in black and white on a 12 inch TV when we lived in Ashe County. Cable was eight bucks for the main channels and PBS. Guess who showed up one day playing his banjo and telling his stories—that's right—Pete Seeger. A true example of irony.
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I hope you can teach me some of those songs some time so's we can revive 'em.
You're perceptive. Pete's time and what we're a-comin into are cut from the same quarter-panel.
C
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As someone with whom I have been in a Christ ordained relationship for more years than I can remember—your words are always welcome at my table.
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Yes and Amen:
1.) You wrote:
"a relationship dynamic... rather than a purely cerebral methodology."
So true. Sometimes I see Jesus as a baseball coach, pitching curve balls and change-ups at us. And because he's ratcheting up the difficulty, we become more proficient hitters, better able to connect with his purposes--to make us "Christ-like."
2.)Re Your statement: "I believe that the creator of the universe is still in process of interacting with His creation."
This is actually considered a laughable claim today in secular circles. We are mocked for believing such as this. Remember the "God is dead" cover on Time magazine? It goes back to that.
And in the scientific realm--oh! it's heresy to say that God intervenes in his creation by suspending the laws of nature at any point in time. We are thought to be naive, superstitious, mythology-espousing fools to believe such things. But hey, it doesn't bother me. Scripture warns us that what we hold dear is considered foolishness by the world.
3.) I'm not kidding when I say this: this has been your best post ever. Maybe you've ditched the emphasis on quantity (thinking you have to blog every day) in favor of quality and authentic conviction. Your sharpness in the Lord's message glints as bright as the shining sword of His Word.
4.) And on the gardens/debt-reduction rap at the end of your post there: I hear ya; you're right on top of it, and as a dreamer who has a dearth of sunshine I'm at the mercy of farsighted brothers like you. Tote that bale; plow that field; toss that seed. Holler if you need a hand.
C, author of Glass half-Full
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I seem to remember a friend named Carey who helped me plant potatoes(?) one year. I probably still owe you a couple of dinners. I will let you know when the time for putting the fence comes. I sense a couple of cool ones coming on, don't you?
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I've been anticipating this post from you, knowing that it would be the surest sign of spring. I feel better already, just having a friend who is attuned to the earth's rhythms.
With our wooded homestead, our connections to the land are different, darkened by poplars. Let us know if you need any slave labor.
Also (Oh deer!) pretty cool tip from Carter with the string thing. And that note about the discing-- it's a helpful anecdote for some of your readers, I'm sure.
Happy planting days are here again! It's good to get the annual retort.
CR, author of Glass half-Full
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That's alright....it reads better the way you put it although I took it out of context.
Another line I like from "Did This Ever Happen To You" is that, "Nobody's stronger than forgiveness."
Thanks for stopping by.
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I will change it to I have seen God's silence like a bonus check. FW
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I am agreed!
a knowing that transcends our very senses
That's a "yep!"
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Yes and amen.
Still, small voice.
Thanks for facilitating his voice to me through you.
Behold how good and how pleasant it is.
C
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Don't forget, friend, that those playground thoughts probably slid into mind as a result of having raised four unique young'uns years ago; and that those scampering children--their lives that you and Sandi lovingly added to this teetering cosmos--they are the loveliest poetry of all, and that all the seeing up and sawing down since then is but surplusly marvelous grace swaying upon our previously barren lives.
Thank you Lord for the wonders you have made! You, oh Lord, are the fulcrum of our wavering dispositions, the axis of our oscillating fancies, our anchor point beyond the veil, and You are the monolith of our salvation!
"Remember HIM before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
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Like a bamboo shoot which grows at an amazing rate once it penetrates the top soil, your comments fertilize my desire to let the various and sundry tongues loose on the white pages of my imagination. Go forth!
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~Well, God does know where.
~ And since you have parted the springy shoots of your wintering imagination, and allowed us entry into your fertile world of metaphorical wonder--treasure hidden in a field-- we are sure that your humus is not dried up, nor is your loam depleted. There is a deep spring in there somewhere, trickling forth...
~living water. It gurgles, as if speaking in tongues, and we friends have, even online, drunk of of it, and so we say, like our God did in the times of the origin of all things...It is good! Thank God. Let it flow, let it flow, let it flow...(and btw, March is here, as if that has anything to do with your renascence.
C
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People like to have something to do. So we construct buildings and programs. Maybe they're useful for a while. After a generation or two, or even a millenium, some tearing down must take place; the old structures hinder more than they help. That's the wineskins principle of which Christ spoke.
Probably the greatest deconstructionist in all of Christendom was Martin Luther. But then look what happened. Another institution was subsequently built upon the deconstructionist foundation that he had (unwittingly) laid.
It's what we humans do. All the buzz of activity keeps us busy, well-fed, out of trouble for awhile.
And then there's the McDonald's effect that you mention--oh, it's definetely in the mix, always has been. Check out 1 Cor 11:13-16 and decide for yourself whether Paul was reflecting some cultural prejudices (pertaining to hair length.)
Nevertheless, our Sovereign Lord is able to work through all of that, in spite of our misplaced cultural baggages. Such is the power of our God.
I mean, he managed to get the message of his grace to me, several thousand miles and millenia away from where the event actually happened, in spite of Nero's persecution, Constantine's conquests and meddling with church doctrine, the popes' misjudgements, the Inquisition, Crusades, Nazis, Jim Jones, greedy preachers, overbuilt cathedrals, charlatan televangelists, manipulative fivefolders, false apostles, Aryans, Arians, misplaced building funds, and every other stripe of human error.
We all export a little of our own prejudice in our presentation of the Gospel. But God can get through it. You don't need to worry about him.
I do hear your admonition, though. We need to be careful minimalists.
Thanks for sharing. C
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This posting has surprised me, in that it has turned out to be one of your most insightful ever.
In watching your recall of her life, I have gained understanding into the dynamics between generations, between parents and children.
As you described your mother, I saw myself acting in similar ways to communicate myself to my children. I can relate to her collages. I do the same with writing books, music, and arranging mementos on bookshelves.
Yes, this posting has been a mother lode.
Here's the first of your musings that jumped at me: "Yet we carry with us the hopes and dreams of what "might have been." To that thought I would like to add this phrase: "and what may yet be."
C
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Steve mentions the "open" aspect of our walk in God's Spirit. This is also what resonated for me in your thoughts. . .(there are) "many ways that things can go and each step forward in obediance to what we believe God is directing leads the way to the next fork in the road."
Yes, thank you for bringing clarity to a liberty that we all enter as maturing Christians. He stays with us through whatever paths we slog.
This also reminds me of Paul's exhortation that "all things are lawful, but not all things are useful." We have God-given freedom to make directional decisions every day. We should choose well, lest we regress.
C
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I have decided the life over the rainbow is to live on this side in stark black and white and because of Christ feel authentic here.
Greatly enjoyed hearing you reminisce about your mother.
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I included the blog address as the web site address when I replied - http://oldpete66.blogspot.com
The blog has been completely rewritten - only relatively minor tidying up of the web site
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Your thoughts are always welcome here. And riding with others is the only way to travel. I had a link to your site a while back but can't seem to find it. Maybe you can leave it again.
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Let me share some thoughts after reading this and your earlier post on 'passion'. The incarnation - "Christ in us" is a reflection of the "Tree of Life". The vast body of knowledge is a reflection of the "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil". I agree that the understanding of the mystery of the gospel is taking a pomo turn - and has nothing to do with buildings or programs. You have suggested that Americans like to take their McDonalds with them - I would replace Americans with Evangelicals!
You commented earlier about being passionate. I am a very unemotional type of person - but I have been vaguely aware of that treasure in earthen vessels for some 50 years, but its only really in the last 3-4 years that it has begun to take on an entirely new meaning.
I do know what it was like to have a job where I couldn't wait to get in in the morning and time generally flew - I was a computer programmer with my own long term project!
I now know what it is to be passionate - strongly motivated - a good sense of what I am meant to be doing - asking questions and encouraging people to think for themselves!
We are all on unique journeys. Those of us who are aware of being called now are each seeing a small part of the overall picture.
Many people have spent their lives in and around the 'room of good intentions'. It's not for me to question why Father in His wisdom has allowed this over the years, but there is a better way - 'the room of grace' - and more and more people are being drawn away from the churches they may have attended for many years.
My blog is an introduction to the journey I have been on - the topic 'True Faced with God' will explain the significance of what I have written above.
Maybe we can share our rides.
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It is nice to hear from you as well. Hope all is going well in Abington.
To finally be at a place where I can allow myself the freedom to actually experience the reality of Christ is great.
And I think you are right about the forks—it seems to me at this point that divine appointments are always around us and whether we look to the right or the left at the point that we sense the presence of a "leading" determines the next step.
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By the way, it's great to read your thoughts again!
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I agree with your sentiments here. Asking questions about things we already thought were settled can be...well...unsettling! But I have enjoyed the exercise, personally. And it has strengthened my faith in so many ways because I have found some things to be far more sure than I ever realized. Other things had to be discarded along the way, but it was a removal of things that were better off gone anyway.
By the way, not that I have the answer to your (mostly rhetorical, I think) questions, but I do believe that there is an "open" aspect to our walk, in the sense that you described about each step leading to the next fork. So many times, we are taught to fear that if we miss that one, specific path that God foreordained for us, we will have missed everything. I don't buy that.
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Don't be to surprised if you get a call one of these mornings. LOL
The Message translation of that verse is:
A sound mind makes for a robust body, but runaway emotions corrode the bones.
The Amplified renders it:
A calm and undisturbed mind and heart are the life and health of the body, but envy, jealousy, and wrath are like rottenness of the bones.
Perhaps that gives a better interpretation of what the writer intended.
Maybe there is a wisdom that is given to control a passionate person, such as Paul, from becoming out of control.
Something to think about anyway.
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Terry,
You should have called me since you were up. I am up often these days near three with a little ones cries.
I have often wondered if the following Proverb is a reference to the sexual passion or just passion generally.
Pr 14:30
A tranquil heart is life to the body, But passion is rottenness to the bones.
I think about writing often as function, as work, as enjoyment, as a means to an end.
Thanks for writing your thoughts out for us to read.
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very sweet post
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That is a good way of putting it. It is not like I haven't gotten the victory over the stuff that tries to re-assert itself into my life—I have. Yet I find that I have trouble consistently walking in the freedom I know is there for me.
A month ago I went to a 2 1/2 day seminar called "Restarting Joy" based on a new form recovery model. The essence of the class being that in order to walk in freedom, the leaky places in our "identity" need to be healed in order for health to be sustainable. I can really say that I saw the light at the end of the tunnel for the first time in a long time. I was on top and not on the bottom and could clearly see the way to life and wholeness. However, it wasn't to long after that lucid moment that things began to unravel in small part.
New found freedom eaten up by familiar spirit of past, etc.
I guess I find mire familiar and comforting to some degree. My fear has been that to leave the mire I leave who I am with it. Being transformed by the renewal of my mind by the washing of the water of the word is a path that produces a feeling of anxiety that I can not explain.
Anyway...thanks for being concerned and a friend.
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Have you ever noticed that stuff we thought we laid to rest, has a way of popping up and passing gas again?
Don't get a smelly memory confused with poop.
I have found when something in my life causes me fear or anxiety, old stuff likes to act like it is important again.
It floats into my brain and my heart is interested in the mess the old stuff once was...as if I had to clean it all up again. Since I didn't have to clean it up before (the shed blood covers it, it's clean), why try to redo a job He already took care of?
Sometimes I have to make a decision to deal with the present fear for what it is rather than be distracted by old settled stuff that still smells a bit. My heart seems to think a known but passed pain is easier to embrace than a current unknown looming in my path.
Don't know if this applies to your current standing in line or not, but it came to mind this morning as I read your post for the second time in two days.
Whether it does or not, be encouraged, Terry. Our little community of faith appears to be much less than what it is. Don't be fooled by what it may not be. In Him, faith grows and strengthens us heart to heart.
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Good comment.
I can freely admit that over a period of 22 years at that church I mostly gave with an open heart and never questioned the staffs use of the tithe or other monies that came into the church. When I saw that personal agendas were being fulfilled (as opposed to what I felt were more important), I still gave but without the gladness of times past. I do think that I quit giving to the "pay off the building fund" however. It was not a command but I did feel somewhat manipulated through the whole process.
Once the mortgage was paid as far as I knew the only thing that changed was that the staff salaries went up, which, all else being equal, is not a bad thing.
Their idea as to what "furthering or advancing the kingdom of God" meant began to differ greatly from what I and others saw.
That is and should still be the "big picture" I referenced or advancing the kingdom as you put it.
Although I tend to agree with you in substance, I am wondering about why the "church" doesn't take care of its own. In the early church we are told that no one had a need. That's a big picture thing and one I don't fully understand.
And I guess therein lies some of my frustration and seeming randomness of church vs. mortgage or free enterprise vs. bailout mentality. It is a big subject that I once thought was simple.
I am certainly hoping to see clearly.
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I have a hard time understanding the church vs. mortgage question in that it sounds like it was a choice on your part whether or not you gave. It was not a command. The church using it to further The Kingdom of God is what it is all about. This is what we as a people are called to and the Church is called to. In giving to that (with the right heart) you are also advancing the Kingdom of God, but giving out of compulsion or a wrong heart won't get your mortgage paid or treasure in heaven. The churches job is not to pay off people's debts.
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". . .standing in line for something that I already have in my pocket."
That's it exactly, my friend. You've got more right now than you ever imagined. Where our security ends, our faith begins. Methinks the "new" rulebook for economics will be a flashback to an earthier kind of productivity, one that you've already got a handle on.
C
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Beautiful imagery...nice segue as well. And I'll have to dwell on "crepuscular" for a few days. I really like that word.
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Terry and his random, insightful connections; Carey and his "glitzy urban whoopfiz wooby-shooby" --
Wow, you guys are fun to read.
I had a similar thought as I read this post. As life in the spirit grows, the stuff of this world that once made us feels alive begins to pale.
Or maybe this is just aging. ;^)
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What makes sense anymore is that nothing seems to fit the boxes that we have built to hold what it is that we thought we needed to revel in or simply remember. What seems a "random" juxtaposition, i.e.—..."two random objects moving in parallel, a technique intended to stimulate creativity" is more and more to me closer to how I really feel or experience things than the line upon line narrative of my past.
Thanks for following the bread crumb trail of my mind.
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Whoa! What a juxtoposition of opposites:
"but the sheer act of walking up Broadway Avenue is not that far from what I experience through the function of tilling my garden..." That's a stretch for sure. But don't we revel in reconciling opposites, as in in our weakness is his strength and you must lose your life in order to find it and that kind of thing.
Although, I can relate to how you completed that thought: "—but the experience in and of itself is stimulating and sensory to a high level of memory and response."
As for this part at the end,"It is like a part of me never arrived—or got there and never left the hotel room—" This is a function of your many years of contented life in the Blue Ridge, having forsaken long ago the hyped attractions of city life. The mellowed mind just doesn't respond so wondrously to glitzy urban whoopfiz wooby-shooby like it did at the age of 17 in 1966... Thanks for sharing your ride. There is, as always, a cornucopia of food for thought (pastrami and pole beans?)
C
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Somehow I knew that you would understand.
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Now that you mention it—aside from my thought process which is often a leap from this to that without seeming stimulus—the point really is about "truth" and the different ways that it presents itself to us. And I guess passion and being in touch with our feelings and surroundings—all rolled up into a lump of dough and ready to be baked.
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Terry,
This is one of the best things I have read anywhere in some time. I appreciate the art of it, the historical call to something all Americans must regard with at least interest, if not deep regard, and the responsibility it places on the reader to responsibility in these times.
Touche! Your words are soft, tough, and illuminating in the dimness.
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Well, that's an unexpected, though refreshing, juxtaposition of images: in bed with the nippy autumnal breezes, and then--the failing foundations of government. The disparate images transcend rational thought and enter the realm of poetic warmth. And so I emerge from your dream-awakened ruminations (which were):
"the weather outside not invited in as in summer,
but left to its separate season, alone and growing ever colder,
until the bedroom windows are tightly closed against the hand of winter
and all that frozen time."
And somehow I emerge with this meditation upon slumbery thoughts:
The "weather outside not invited in" must represent that chilly wind of impending worldy change; it whistles beneath the window sash, foreboding a bitter winter of dearth where formerly abundance had sheltered us from those frigid breezes.
Yet we do still have rapt garments to outlast the blizzard of cataclysm that lies ahead: It is our raw and naked love, fertile and celebratory in all its God-ordained intimacy.
Not to mention the Love of that One who granted the "unalienable rights."
Thanks for sharin' your slumbery poems.
C
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I had not even heard of them...but I don't get around much.
Their website says:
AmeriCorps members address critical needs in communities all across America. As an AmeriCorps member, you can:
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Hi Terry,
"...create a new CCC and hire unemployed people to clean up America, tear down all those old buildings and plant trees, flowers and grass and create parks for people to gather together in to discuss our collective future."
Isn't that what the AmeriCorps is supposed to be doing?
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I like your thinking, Terry! It makes more sense than what is going on in Washington these days. At least somebody gets work and something tangible happens in your plan.
Keep up the blogging!
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When I asked a couple of my work friends what they thought of FDR, both seemed to think that he was the right man for the job at that particular time in our nation's history. It could work but we have come a long way from Roosevelt's time and any forward movement government-wise would probably get stuck in some committee somewheres. Thanks for stopping by during your busy ride. I have been listening to Darren Hufford and he is quite a trip—how does he put it "you can't tame that which is meant to be wild!"
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I chuckled at Carey's creative comment. And I like the idea of another clean-up and rebuilding operation. I wonder if it really will happen, and whether or not it would work. But I like the way you're thinking...
And I couldn't even possibly attempt an answer to the question, so I remained silent!
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Yes, it looks like the pendulum is swinging back in the CCC direction, and we know that the guy laying out the New Deal now is not Roosevelt;
It almost seems to be a "perfect storm" that is disrupting our 60 year repose, and provoking us to plant trees (and other public works) where dirty old railyards and superfund sites in need of mega-cleaning now obstruct our 21st century notions of environmental harmony.
It seems the name of that newer deal leader drifts in the wind of our sensibilities, and it rhymes with what we are now seeing on the world economic stage--a truly historic drama!
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I am going to make an effort tonight to tie them all together before I lose the entire thread.
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I had forgotten about "Beautify America" but remembered LBJ's "War on Poverty."
My answer was a stretch on Ladybird.
;^)
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Wow!! Jessika is getting married! I am so glad in your celebration. Blessings on her, her new husband and your whole family!
I hold you with warmth in my heart, always.
I am anxious to hear your proposal. From the hint, it must be something about how we relate to the natural world around us.
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They all inspire us to undertake works that will insure our survival. (?)
Thanks for the story about your grandfather. The older I get, the more I appreciate memoirs like that, especially when they take us back to a place and time that is generally unseen by us today.
As I was considering your thoughts about the environs viewable from the train, I was reminded of Arlo's Guthrie's line in the old song:
"This train's got the disappearing railroad blues. Good night, America, how are you?..."
I think we can apply that adjective "disappearing" to much more than the railroad itself.
This is ironic. As I write this, I'm in Orlando, about to go to DisneyWorld. My daughter works as a photographer there.
Yes, times have changed...and they are a'changin...
Keep up the good work. I enjoy your writing immensely.
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You are right, it is not the answer "I" was looking for. But in another sense, you are a lot closer than I could ever imagine you would get. Frankly, in these terms, there is no right answer. What I will attempt to do when I return from Jessika's wedding tomorrow, is to link them together with a proposal I worked up in my head on the way back from New York.
A hint: think New Deal, CCC, beautify America, the tenacity with which the WTC cleanup progressed, and global warming as a threat that is seemingly far away and therefore not being taken seriously.
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They all reached down.
FDR reached down to the depression stricken.
Lady Bird reached down to the poor.
The Twin Towers reached down to the subterranean level to no avail.
Globe Warming reaches down to whole world.
Probably not the answer to your little riddle, but I had to try.
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Exhaustion is the new relaxation. Good to be back.
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There will be more—my vigil is your vigil.
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Glad you had a good time and glad your back!
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Hey, thanks for the report. We'd love to hear more about that otherworldly Oz between Canal and the Cloisters. I hope you can find time to share your thoughts. This one, for instance, is quite provocative: "Yet I wonder how long I would be able to hold out before I also signed off and entered my own personal world during my daily 'train-time'".
Did you happen to hear Vince Jordano and the Nighthawks while you were in the Big Apple? Or were you perhaps in the vicinity when the Lehman Brothers began their slide to the street?
According to what I've heard about how the chips are falling, I might be knocking on your door sometime in the near future looking for some beans and corn.
Welcome back to the Boonies.
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Congratulations on the anniversary and a very nice commemorative essay!!
You are both blessings as individuals, and your marriage sings to all of us of God's love and faithfulness.
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well if that blog isn't an absolute masterpiece, I don't know what is, for it presents ample evidence that your 30-year sojourn together has certainly been guided by the Master's hand. I'm glad to have been a small part of that journey (and I understand what you said about her smile because it's one of the best all-time most radiant that's ever been) and may y'all have 30 more. Thanks for shedding your light and His Light on the world and on cyberspace. Keep it up.
C
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In wisdom you are in 59. In health and attitude, the 40 that you mentioned is, I think, correct, like me...
In wonder, i'd place you at about 24, a good place to be.
When you write about the old folks with their surgeries,etcetera, your perception in a little skewed; you are actually thinking of the 70+ crowd.
We've got a ways to go yet before all that comes into play (as I adjust my rose-colored glasses.)
Maybe you'll be the next Methuselah.
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maybe the quest for wholeness is closely linked to the quest for holiness, which is, as stated in Micah 6:8, "to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your (our) God."
and I hear ya about the people-watching thing. maybe the key is to write more about what you see in those people, less about what's inside of you, although i do relate to your subjective style of reporting on life. keep it up.
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I guess that is why I still hold out hope that this whole "church" thing can still be figured out—at only 39 I have 30 or 40 more years to watch it evolve. Although my friend from Tanzania bought me the book "Pagan Christianity" yesterday and I may really be in for it after all.
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Happy Birthday. Loved the story.
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I know a bit about your heart and I think you are not a day older than 39! Happy Birthday!... and you have described well how I find myself responding to age.
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We do lie in green pastures, don't we!
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I am so glad that I made someone's day. Seriously, Sandi and I have always considered you to be one of the most creative people we have ever known. Just think about peanuts and Breyer's Ice Cream.
As defined by Wikipedia creativity is: a mental process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts.
This lack of new associations is what you rail against in the way the structure of the current church tries to "cookie-cutterize" us into a group of people who can be marketed to.
It seems the true test of how any structure works is how it deals with differences rather than similarities.
Because people haven't changed all that much good people are still making the same foundational/relational mistakes when they do finally break away from all that sameness and attempt to do something different.
Sometimes all we really have to do is ask in order to get the answer that we seek.
It seems like we both live in places where the grass is pretty green.
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Fascinating.
Today, I am fully convinced that there are many things that can play havoc with our creativity—the first of which is a mind full of stuff that hasn't been properly filed away. Each degree of unsettledness produces an equal amount of mental detritus that will literally float around until we filter it off.
I so related to this piece but especially the above quote.
For years I did not consider myself a very creative person. For example, though we should never compare ourselves, I have always viewed both the Henry's as creative in ways that I could never match. I saw the way my brain worked as very messed up, largely because my emotions seemed so out of whack. The more settled in Jesus I have become, the more I heard others comment on my creativity.
I found this very curious. I wasn't very creative I had convinced myself. However, as I continued to grow in Him, I realized at least some of my brain function was creative: my random connections occasionally were useful, not useless; and that was an attribute that everyone did not possess nor could I measure it by comparing my products to the products of others.
So the issue became in my walk, what will I do with this creativity in the service of others and the Father?
effective application feels a bit like being the "head," maybe? There's more to ruminate over, perhaps.
All that to say, in the journey I have learned much of my "unfiltered mental detritus" (Joni Mitchell should write a song about how good you are with words!) has to do with my emotions and not my brain's function. So as my emotions line up with the Spirit of Jesus, my brain is able to file more effectively and my creativity becomes fun to play with.
Your insight today, has made my day!
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I'll pass on putting my response in verse.
I have decided this creative thing by nature is cyclical. So be it, though I think there is a connection, especially since you personally identified it, to the put-off project.
Did you post something about a week ago briefly before removing the post, or am I dreaming such? I really thought that one morning I quickly passed through several blogs giving them a check and saw a new post on your blog. I made a mental note to read it later, then later, it was not there.
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There is a time for reading
And a time for writing
And hopefully a time for picking corn
That has been planted
Just for this very reason
You are always up for the task my friend.
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men are nice
and
women are fine
but
as for poets
give me either any ole time
to make a rhyme
without a reason
in this silly summer season.
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I think of the song that we used to sing, "Give thanks with a grateful heart" and wonder if this is not what the author meant. The moments we spend around a dining room table in conversation and the encouragement we feel upon leaving—which in and of itself brings to mind another sermon I once heard about putting courage into one another.
Many of our poems are written on our hearts and whether we are aware of them or not they help smooth some of the rough spots we sometimes find ourselves in.
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Thanks Terry and Carey for gentle poetry to wash these tired eyes.
And the encouragement to recognize the moment for what is, rich and full...there is a holiness there from God which brings reverence welling up within.
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My point exactly..bravo.
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All our life,
we slept beneath a patchwork quilt
upon the cozy life we’d built.
Three children
made our patchwork warm,
but also frayed, sometimes torn.
Later on,when
they had moved across the mountains’ rolling green,
beyond the blue sky and the dream,
we washed the old quilt, made it clean.
We threw
it o’er the line to dry;
It flapped and snapped a sad goodbye.
Then we laid it on the bed again,
where we dream about them now and then.
C
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Thanks. I don't think I did the subject much justice however. My frustration lays in the fact that people seem to believe that we are making headway by having a women or an African American participate in a presidential primary process. I think that is great but the point still remains that that, in and of itself, is not going to fix anything.
What we need is a radical shift in thinking. We need national goals and MO's that we can all get behind. And this is making the assumption that our world is not going to overheat in the near future and burn us all up.
It is the balance of power between free will and puppets on a string—we need to live our lives as if what we do on an individual basis makes a difference. If one or two companies control our corn and the rest of what we eat and centralized farming, etc. continues, then any natural disaster is going to throw the rest of the equation out of kilter.
Dylan also said in the late 60's: You have thrown the worst fear that can ever be hurled, the fear to bring children into this world.
In these uncertain times, we need to have our focus on spiritual things, not things on earth. And that is certainly a challenge for me but one that I know I need to take.
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This observation that you wrote is the crux of the matter: "... we have become used to having most anything that we have desired and this has brought us to a time in history where our options are about to be defined for us rather than us setting our own course."
This condition is what our parent's generation called "spoiled."
It's a hard, hard, hard rain's a gonna fall.
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this line pretty much says it all, this is where true unity will come...my prayer for the universal church is just that...transparency...we can talk it, but more is required than that..we must 'do'it...good stuff..."When a group of people trust God and one another enough to be transparent and real, healing will take place, love will happen and change will not be something we avoid but rather embrace."
melody
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I see the essence of what we have sought all these years in this sentence which you have written: "When a group of people trust God and one another enough to be transparent and real, healing will take place, love will happen and change will not be something we avoid but rather embrace."
Yes, we have sought that. In some ways, we approach its fulfillment. In other ways, we have fallen short. But I can tell you this: the Kingdom that Christ hath founded is much greater than that. You and I could go today to Tanzania, or China, or Ecuador, or Romania, or Myrtle Beach, or most any place on earth, and we would find there believers in the Lord Jesus whose faith originated with those first seeds sown by Peter, Paul, etc. This thing is far, far bigger than what happens between "two or more of you." He also manifests wherever "two or more (hundreds, thousands, millions)agree. The Kingdom of God is destined to occupy all the earth.
What you have observed about the cell(group) is also true of the entire organism (Body of Christ) and is much more awesome that we can comprehend.
C
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I'm glad we're on the ride together!
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That's the Spirit! Stretch those wings.
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Oh yeah!
Taste and see...
the Lord is good!
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I look forward to the more that is to come.
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Thanks for the update. Flying lifts one above the dust and soot close to the earth. Enjoy the fresh air!!
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We're awaiting the "more to come," but hey, take your time. We know you're gardening heavily in the spring.
C
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It would be interesting to here what you have to say. I myself have not delved into much discussion around the book but have downloaded a few pod casts from thegodjourney.com hosted by one of the writers of the Shack and also the Jake Book (So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore).
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I read "The Shack" in July last year. It had an enormous impact. I am familiar with the background to the book and it has been exciting to see how it has developed.
I walked away from Sunday school when I was 14 because of what I saw as the ridiculous teaching of the trinity. I have never doubted the existence of God but until now (57 years later) I've never had a faith to share.
I've had the chance to read the reactions of hundreds of people to the book (both positive and negative).
I would appreciate the opportunity of sharing thoughts with anyone who might be interested.
Pete
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Wit and wonder are apt and well worth contending for any day.
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Good stuff Terry. I am an enormous fan of "The Shack". I do not recall ever reading another book that so aptly illustrated the wit and wonder of my journey with God. I barely made it through a couple of pages without tears streaming down my cheeks. It is wonderful to just rest in relationship and enjoy the long ride.
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Just after I posted my first comment, Freida and I left for a day trip to Asheville. Have just returned home and it is much past your departure time. Thanks and maybe next time.
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I am leaving here at 4 today for music sound check at 5. Meeting is at 6:30. You are welcome to come.
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I rejoice, as well. The tone and content here resonate with me deeply. I want to go to a mmeting with your farmer friend, Alan. Let us know when you are making the trip. As I have pondered the responsibility of someone at the front, I have imagined it would be most fruitful when, "...he is much like a conductor in his approach to seeing a group of people come together and get something out of it."
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I rejoice with you in hearing about all of these developments, except maybe the stuck-in-traffic predicament, although you seem to have made your peace with that one as well. It all comes down to abounding in God's grace every minute of every day, regardless of the circumstances. Sometimes, I believe, the character of Christ in us is seen by others more in our tribulations than in our prosperities. That is why the Gospel is the most potent message on earth. Even crucifixion cannot kill it!
I especially like this part of what you wrote: "Miracles of all kinds are all around us, we just have to have eyes to see them for them to become a reality in our time and space."
Thanks for the update. Your testimonies inspire us. May the Lord be with you.
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Thanks man...I needed that. I can remember getting into some "heavenly realm" stuff with you as we practiced music for this or that event—in the past yes, but duly noted as a footnote for today.
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Wow!
If you were "stuck" before, you certainly are not stuck now. Your wife is, as usual, right. The preoccupation with "past" is a characteristic that we have noticed over the years, but it is, if it is not allowed to fall into to obsession, the very basis of what you so-accurately call "using the past as a literary vehicle to move into and explain today and the future." What you are doing now is the stuff of blogging greatness. Our generation awaits your perspective. Write on!
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Well said, world traveler. It is indeed amazing to have lived through all that stuff and the perspective we have have gained. He has never left us or forsaken us, that is one thing we can be sure of. And the music continues to lead us.
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As Uncle Walt Cronkite might say, "That's the way it was..." although I only heard about it later through a few spoken words and vibes that traveled across the continent, but mostly from the pages of Life magazine. That little acre or two adjoining the panhandle park certainly captured the imagination of a generation. Thanks for the memory, especially since it was an eyewitness report. But here's the straight scoop: our generation of dreamers were trying to find heaven on earth; I was among them in "spirtit"; you were among them in body and spirit. Thank God our paths later converged under the influence of, not lysergics and cannabis, but the awesome power of a Holy Spirit who showed by the Son the true path of enlightenment and brotherhood. Praise Jesus! the original flower child, non-violent countercultural hero, Prince of Peace and Love, man.
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I do remember that "jam session". I also remember putting your speakers in the front window and turning the Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore concert all the way up—I don't think we stopped any traffic but did have a good time in the front yard.
I went to the Newport Jazz Festival in 1971 in order to see Miles and that was the year that the crowd broke down the fence and tore the place up and George Wein cancelled it. We were able to pick up Muddy Waters in Boston and Charlie Mingus in New York on the way back (the long way) to Port Huron but I never did get to see Miles. I am glad that you did.
I also remember a brother playing "air drums" to "in a gada da vida" in that white-carpet living room as well. I think he go pretty good at them too.
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Where has the time gone?I'm sitting here writing and listening to the best of the James Gang and remembering the family that I have ignored for way to long.I remember an older brother that I shared a bottle of Galiano with listening to Miles Davis "Bitches Brew" I don't know if I erver told him,but I finaaly saw him in 1988 and I probably cried thru the whole concert,it was that emotional.It brouht back memories of Mom and Dad.Reading what you wrote it reminded me of a jam session inthe living room with a teenage boy and his audio toys and recording his brother and friends.What ever happened to that tape? My ride has not always been a good one,but I have had the love of a woman who has stayed with me for good or bad.there's a lot more that I could write,but that will be for another time.I'll just end this with I love my family,I've always had a hard time showing it.
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I was a free man in Paris, I felt unfettered and alive.
Stay the course, have a little wine for your stomach, and take it easy.
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Pat told me last night that I ought to blog, but I just like responding to others', especially yours, which always strikes my heart strings.
1. Don't know who Kevin is, but hope to sing the song with ya sometime. What we do in real space and time is reaally the best "love of music." You know, Eliezar etc.
2. Here's something very current for us because it's a thought I had yesterday. It's off topic, but I know you don't mind. We were walking through the old building, the Capitol of British Columbia, yesterday. In a long hallway, posted on the walls, were pictures of their governors/premieres since the early 1800s. I looked at the every picture, every face from way back in the past over 150 years ago until the present. And I noticed this: EVERY man's face was stern and serious prior to the the 1940s. The two men who were pictured as premieres in the 40s had an almost perceptible (perhaps I imagined) smile. Then, from the 1950's onward till now, every man's (and one woman) face had a big, slappin' smile! I walked away wondering: Why is that? Did people get happier in the 1950's? Or maybe it was the Nazis had been defeated? Or perhaps at last the human race (or Homo North Americus) had progressed beyond mere survival mode, into the modern existence of comforts, cars, and carefree leisure with the Price Is Right and American Idol? Go figure.
Oh, and btw, our soundtrack is, I suppose, the occasional streetsingers, and the birds finding their voices amidst this Pacific Coast spring, and the heavenly songs in our heads. . ."You are my light and my salvation." C Am F G
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It appears that you and Pat are in the middle of writing your own soundtrack. My current soundtrack comes from a conference I saw on DVD where Kevin Prosch sang: "You are my light and my salvation, Whom shall I fear. You are the stronghold of my life, Whom shall I fear!" I re-created it in C, G, Am and F and it can go on for a long time. Keep safe.
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The line I remember most from that Sly song is: "I'm gonna add a little guitar to make it easy to move your feet..." Then the guitar with the little riff...diddle didddle diddd....
But I'm also appreciating the one about the guy on the Boston subway. I listened to the song many times, not from the Kingston Trio, but from the lips and fingers of my old friend Larry Cassanova, buddy at LSU in early 70s. What I DO remember from the Kingston Trio was "Greenfields..." "Once there were green fields, kissed by the sun. Once there were valleys, where rivers used to run..." I guess they were "green" before most others were. They also did the Tom Dooley song, about an event that happened, sadly enough, just a few miles from our North Carolina home. Any way all of that is thousands of miles away now, since I post this from the cool mists of Victoria, British Columbia, where Pat and I have taken a detour from our roots back east. It's nice to have a change of scenery now an then and while I'm at it have to namedrop this...visited the original Starbucks in Seattle, and a few days before that walked right past the City Lights bookstore in SF, didn't even go in, because looking back on that long ride ago something terribly wrong started there. I'm glad our paths were later diverted to Jesus but I suppose it's all part of the long ride, and now that I know how it will end up with the King of Kings, I've got to rejoice. Pardon me while I rejoice in Him, or pardon me while I kiss the Sky? Thanks for sharing your ride and thanks for offering us commentors the opportunity to add a little bit about our long ride too. Catch ya on the flipflop goodbuddy
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You are welcome...thanks for dropping by. It is always nice to hear from someone off the regular path that I travel. I certainly remember several times getting together with friends and turning the music all the way up and fully enjoying Sly. My memory is that his band had a lot more going for it musically than many give him credit for—in terms of sound layering and catching that jazzy R & B type rhythm...almost psychedelic in fact before anybody knew what that was. I know that Miles Davis took off on some of his stuff as well.
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Thanks for mentioing Sly and the the Family Stone's "Dance to the Music" in your piece. I couldn't think of a better song to have in the background as I move through life. Sly had a trememdous impact on music and society. I write about this and more in my book about Sly. Check it out at http://www.lulu.com/content/1412956
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Being prudent is not about storing up treasure that will be burned up and has our heart captive. I am beginning to think that this is a period of "creative challenge" that we are entering into...a period where our faith will go deeper in an around the things that we do.
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...don't think about it as being worried about tomorrow's meal. It is prudent management of God's money. Keeping stored food on some shelves as a hedge against hunger is a foolish lack of faith, yes. Being able to lay out a table full of food for someone or many someones who are hungry is an act of love. Joseph was used by God to store seven years worth of food for an entire nation.
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The world system organized as it is around greed has always been unstable if you took the time to scratch the surface. It appears the need to scratch to look has long past.
Steve,you mention storing food...hmmmm. Yup, we're still eating wheat grown in 1999. (Carey, the electric grinder was worth it!) According to what we read back then, wheat kept dry and safe from hungry pests with six legs or those with long tails keeps twenty years or more without any other means of extension. Canned meat keeps for years, much longer than veggies. Food stuffs that have the nutrition removed keep long periods of time as well. White rice instead of brown and white flour instead of whole wheat. But who wants less nutrition? And of course, dry beans keep years and are nutritious. A good pressure cooker turns the preparation of these into a matter of minutes instead of hours of soaking before hours of boiling.
Buying oatmeal and brown rice in small bulk amounts makes sense. Brown rice lasts about six months and oatmeal a year. The benefits are reduced cost, high in nutrition and fiber, and there is some amount of supply on hand except when you are near the bottom of the last order. You just have to be disciplined about eating these regularly to prevent loss due to spoilage. Of course, as long as there is electricity, when frozen these two last much longer.
Always buy multiples of items on sale that have a shelf life of a year or two.
Keep these products rotated and you always have a supply of something. Oh, and buy toilet paper by the case. It is much cheaper that way and good to have on hand! (snicker)
I determined a while back that even though Y2K turned out flat compared to the hype, we learned many good lessons from the experience. I even think our attitudes about community have been shaped for the better.
Next, I want to develop a way to catch and hold rain water, at least for watering my flowers and tomatoes without paying the town of Boone. Do any of you know how to proceed on that one? An easy to understand book maybe.
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We've got several buckets of it left as well—never been opened and I think I know where the hand grinder is also. We have an attachment for our juicer that will grind wheat up pretty fine and have used that. I even have two cans of garden seeds left that are nitrogen packed—cool, eh!
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Ha, ha, Tonto.
See if you can believe this: We've still got 20 gallons of red wheat left over from Y2K! It was packed in nitrogen. I checked one bucket recently and it's still good as new.
We went back to buying wheat from the store when our "Y2K" hand-grinder broke. I was too lazy to keep grinding, and we didn't want to shell out the $ for an electric one. So we quit grinding, and the stuff has been sitting ever since. Must have been about 2002. I told Pat we'd just save it in case Y2K decided to show up late. Maybe you're onto sump'n. I do remember, though, several of us thought the financial meltdown would come in '96, but of course...well, you know.
C
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Who is that masked man living his life out as Carey? That's what I am saying: we need to be on the mark this year and not just a little behind. I need to keep the deer from eating my beans and corn as well.
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If you have a bumper crop of corn or veggies this year maybe I'll buy some from you. And maybe this summer it would be prudent to replace our autos with bicycles?
Carey
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Without too much thought (and admitting that I have given it some thought) I think it will equal out. To be wise as serpents and harmless as doves is what comes to mind. There is no hysteria here: just a well informed decision to increase the size of your pantry. To fellowship more, not less. To build a community that will take care of you if you were in the process of storing up songs instead of food, etc.
Will some of us find bread in the forest as our daily provision—Yes!
We are communicating here because someone, somewhere dug the coal to fuel the furnace that made the electricity that allows us to surf and connect.
But being in the room that has a live piano being played by a live person is so much better than a recording any day.
As I look around me I know that I have accumulated way to much stuff that I have to work hard to keep under a roof to keep it from getting wet and so on.
According to your faith, so be it unto you. Out faith certainly has room to get a few dollars of canned goods every week in order to prepare for the future.
Thanks for stopping by...I am sure that is not all we can say but it is a beginning at least.
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I think you hit it right on the head here. I may need to get some tips from you and DED about how to stock up on stuff. Because I think you're absolutely right.
My one question (not that you have to answer it, but it's in my own mind) is whether or not Jesus' injunction not to worry about what we would eat tomorrow has any impact on this topic.
I'm trying to figure that out...
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Yep, I'm spring-hungry, too.
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Amen.
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My pleasure entirely....it was one of those "moments" that passes to quickly.
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Thanks so much for coming! It was nice to have you there and to know that you enjoyed it.
...you move on to the next song and don't wait around until something from someplace else just happens to show up in front of you...
This is good. I have known too many people (and I was once there, too!) who keep waiting for God to do something or keep waiting for the "next wave", instead of living out what they already have and letting the Spirit move through that.
I have a hunch that if we do what we're saying, we'll find all the fulfillment that we otherwise try to seek.
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The Port Huron Statement was written at the SDS convention in Port Huron on June 15th, 1962. I would have been in the 7th grade and don't remember hearing about it until the late sixties. Tom Hayden was one of the writers and wrote:
We are people of this generation, bred in at least modest comfort, housed now in universities, looking uncomfortably to the world we inherit...
I did meet John Sinclair however, who was the band manager for the MC5 and the re-organizer of the underground newspaper The Fifth Estate, which is still being published today. He was a part of the White Panther Party and now travels around and of course blogs.
As an afterthought: I seem to remember that the piano in question had ivory keys so there was no black and white as they had yellowed from age.
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isnt it good black and white wood.
please tell us about the Port Huron statement.
C
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Politicians cannot address the sin which plagues humanity. There is no political compromise that will establish truth in the hearts of the general population.
Individuals, on the other hand, submitted to God are able to infuse the moment and the hearts around them with love that brings order to the soul.
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Obama appears to be one of those 20 year candidates. The 40's had Rosevelt, the 60's had Kennedy, the 80's had Regan. Now Obama is on the scene for the "00" decade. It seems that about every 20 years we get someone eloquent and inspirational. For better or worse they change the trajectory of the American political machine. Change is at least a possibility under such circumstances. We certainly are due a bit of motivation after the last 16 years of "bubba" and "w". I find politics to be fascinating - the human experiment still running on...more interconnected now than we have been since the Tower of Babel..
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As in a "pre", "mid" or "post" sense?
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we're in for a rough ride and i don't think politics has much to do with the outcome, but the Lord will see us through.
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His optimism is almost irresistable. Maybe if I was 30 years younger...Certainly more inspiring than Goerge McGovern... Wonder what a meeting between him and Putin would be like, or Kim Jong Il?... I guess that a choice between him and McCain would be a heart vs. head dilemma. Since I'm 56, I suppose I'd go with the head, because the heart is for personal decisions, not political ones involving a commander in chief. These are perilous times. But of course human experience has always been perilous, it's just that now we are so much more capable of annihilating ourselves.{?}
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I am definitely apolitical. The system is more than corrupt; the blind are leading the blind for profit.
I voted in protest last time by writing a candidate that was not on the ballot in NC. Though he was running, he didn't "qualify" in NC. I knew I was voting emotionally, as a reactionary, and with no impact whatsoever. That didn't matter, because I don't believe my vote matters. The system will have its way no matter who is elected. That way is not Christ's way, and it never could be or will be until He returns.
I smile nonetheless and still desire to be a good citizen. I pick up litter and vote.
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Carey: You bring such joy to my life with your friendship and replies. Be doubly blessed my brother.
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1. Your silver thread sews up our joy with patches of God's grace; thus he covers us with his love.
2. It could be that global warming has afforded us special February favors. If so, aren't you glad we moved to the mountains!
C
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I am reminded that unless the Lord builds the house, we labor in vain. Yet in this statement I don't see that we never pick up a hammer and some nails. And unless the Lord shows us, we can't even see our own hearts or motivations.
Hopefully our ride today will be one of thankfulness and appreciation for His strength made perfect in our weakness—and that what we say and think will truly be how we live out our lives with each other. I do see in this community being built—as you do—an approach being made to create a friendly landing strip for all types of planes.
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Maybe recognizing and honoring such spiritual connectedness is a missing dynamic in much religious rhetoric. It is more than a loss for the whole of the brethren; it is a loss of being brethren and explains why Christendom has allowed itself to become so badly splintered.
What a huge blessing to be in a community of brethren that is beginning to understand such!
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I think it is as you have always thought—we each carry a part of who the other is—in HIM.
In some mysterious way, we each complete a part of who the other is. It definitely transcends what we normally think of what relationship means—it is not sexual but intimate in the same way we are the bride and Jesus is the groom. I don't have any more insight than that tonight. Thanks for the ride.
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I am connected to the way you write about my world. It is hard to describe how your words make me feel...I'm at a loss, but somehow your post capped a "perfect" day for me.
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Carey: It is great having you as a "biking buddy" even though we have never been on two wheels together.
However, I will always remember the trip to DC and how sore my fingers were after playing mandolin to your guitar for hours and hours.
Even though the miles we log together now are more cerebral...I will take what I can get.
Also: I will see what I can do about the "artful" picture.
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You've given us some great imagery, with the writing and the picture. It' funny that those were the days my friend memories are so pleasant, even though they happened in the midst of relatively adverse and uncomfortable circumstances, compared to our warm, convenient environment today. I think your sharing indicates an intrinsically optimistic (faith-anchored)perspective on life. That's what I like about your blog. And you always work it back to the Enjoy your ride!
In that great picture, however, my mind wanders to the background (since I know what is back there) and my imagination wants to see that 3/8" ice on arbutus leaves or juniper, next to artfully arranged stones.
Thanks for the lift.
C
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The one thing that comes to mind as you speak on friendship is the fact that in order to go to higher levels you must be humble. In order to have the confidence in ourselves that we need, we are asked to not think more highly of ourselves than we should.
I other words, friendship to me means being open to discussion but at the same time not waiting for everything to be approved before you move forward.
When various levels of and understanding of authority come into play within a friendship, it has been my experience that complete openness is hard to maintain. As human beings I guess we get to a point where we really don't think we need to hear from a multitude of counselors. Or to let every fact be established out of the mouth of two or three witnesses.
I haven't totally said what I wanted to say, but I hope you get my drift. Thanks for riding with me.
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Friends are what has gotten me through it all. Interestingly enough, friendship is the one human relationship that transcends the usual age, gender, family, race, belief, etc barriers that frame our other relationships (or lack thereof). No greater love has anyone than this - that a man lay his life down for his friends. To think that not only did Jesus establish friendship as the pinnacle of human relationship, but brought us into friendship with God... (methinks it might be time for a bit of contemplation - and perhaps a wee dram of single malt) Cheers to the long ride.
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What would my world be without a Carey to meet me at those places that most people never discover. Thanks and be blessed.
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1. The dream scenario, especially with the most recent installment in which you get to the airport with time to spare, is a picture of God's Grace.
2. As for going to Africa--I can almost assure you, based on what you write--that you will go again one day. As to how that will happen, here are a couple of possibilities:
a. Get Cheap Joe to send you, to develop the markets there. Get Joe to cover your expenses, and then your family springs for their half.
b. Or, Take a look at what Samaritan's Purse has got going there (and it is a lot going on). Maybe they could use some volunteer help in the realm of gardening or graphic arts.
3. "Your young men shall dream dreams..." I guess this means you're still young.
4. I still treasure, and display in my kitchen, the two wooden spoons you gave me the last time you went to Tanzania.
5. Thanks for sharin'.
C
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I would say that the song you are writing with your group of friends (me included) is one of love, hope and understanding. It is my hope that we can begin to hear the song before to long a time has passed and we get to enjoy it for a long, long time.
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Enjoyed reading this, Terry.
It has been colder this winter than any of the last four or five winters it seems. Maybe since back in the nineties? Certainly much colder than last. Except for the lack of moisture, it is winter as I think of it in the mountains.
Have we made the most of life? I have thoughts like that, usually coupled with some reading of Scripture that reminds me my days in this body are a very small and finite number, and I will stand before a holy Father. Praise Jesus for His work on the Cross!
Then I think one either has to see the moment filled with gratefulness and joy over the living of life or be eaten up with fear, ungratefulness and regret. The joy angle is clearly the better view--a long vista of beauty from the top of the ridge, eh?
I really liked your line about every vibration and bump being a poem written just to you. I've stopped blogging for now, but want to keep writing. You inspire me. Thanks!
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I may have misplaced that page somewhere and I will go looking for it...it the meantime I will feed the stove and go watch "House".
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Yes, it is pure joy to live when we are in touch with the one who authored life itself.
The line (or the ride)seems to end somewhere off the page, but it only appears to end because we can't see where. So we should believe that it continues infinitely in space, for we have the testimony of Him who draws it.
Thanks for your thoughts.
C
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Thanks...I miss you as well. There's a lot brewing and hopefully I can keep it on the burner long enough to get to it all.
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Terry.
One of your best blogs ever. Keep it up. I miss you.
C
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I would have to say that a part of the whole dynamic is that Jesus is a friend to us who sticks closer than a brother. If we could but cultivate that sense of presence on a moment by moment level we'd all be better off for sure.
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Ah Alas...the journey we find ourselves on...the journey of friendship, relationship, vulnerability, patience, longsuffering, kindness, and ultimately, love...thus comes joy in the fulfillment of it all. Without friendship we are as a ship sailing alone on a vast ocean...friends, there a good thing :0)
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Thanks yourself....and I didn't mention getting a cigar and lots of other things.
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Terry,
Thanks for stopping in! I'm glad to see you enjoyed yourself.
Have Fun!
Phill Adams
Director of Development
Jungle Jim's International Market, Inc.
Fairfield, Ohio 45014
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That's right...no matter what they do "down" there, we always come back.
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They are linked in the sense that God gave gifts to man without repentance—JM & MD never acknowledged the gift giver for their gift.
What time?
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Amazing! what they've done done down the mountain while we've been up here in the Boonies these last 25 years. Yee haw!
C
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Thank you for that beautiful gift through M. Edwards, although I don't see the relation to Joni M. or M. Davis, since they are in different universes. I don't seem JM or MD as linked to the ONE whom M. Edwards exalts.
In other news, I'll be leading worship this Friday night at Celebrate Recovery, at Alliance, if you care to join us.
Love C
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Yeah...we missed you as well. I guess it really is FATT instead of FAT. I am sure it is not PHAT.
Next time maybe.
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Yeah, I understand the one week we're not able to be there, y'all show up.
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We can live FAT without overeating. Thanks for the Fellowship Around the Table.
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Enjoyed reading this, and I was encouraged to live well and be well today!
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Yes, I do think it! and I love your strong ending on this one, Terry. Your travels always produce very rich, edifying observations. Thanks for sharing.
And we will not let the slobbing of America overtake us!
C
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That is a scenario for sure. Which makes the eating of the fruit even more significant in terms of blaming Eve for enticing him. I know I didn't do the subject justice (I am on the road on a business trip) but there is a lot of food for some great poetic thought. Thanks
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Great post Terry! We know Adam spent time with God in the garden. Perhaps that time was vital to Adam's development as a human being (so that he wasn't created knowing language but learned it in a way similar to how we learn to speak). There's much to think about here.
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It always amuses me that our understanding is line upon line....not one big volcano of information overload. Thanks for being a person with whom I can continue to learn how to love.
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Thanks for sharing the second photograph. So much of human existence seems to be about establishing some sense of permanence, of having made our mark. The truth is we are like flowers, blooming and passing into oblivion.
So what matters about us is obviously the eternity we find in the Father, nothing else. Interesting how your rusting Model T speaks to me of the need to be learning to love and not to bother too much with money.
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Your pictures speak 2000 words, and provide thoughtful incentive to store treasure in heaven.
C
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Thanks for the advice...I am sure that even given my current bent toward cleaning up, there will be plenty to sift through later on. I still have a lot of "cool" stuff.
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Here's what I wrote on your Facebook site: LINK
Good morning, Terry. I read your blog yesterday, about surveying your dad's stuff. I've recently had a similar experience. Just before Christmas, I went back to Louisiana to assist my brother and sisters in ordering my mother's estate. NOw listen to this: Boxes and boxes of memorobilia that extend back into my family history for several generations, I suddenly found very interesting. This was stuff that I had ignored and overlooked for decades. Suddenly, after my mother's death, it all seemed so interesting, especially papers/photos from my grandfather Carey's tenure as Assistant Sec. of State under four Louisiana governors, including Huey Long.
Bottom line: Save anything that will afford your progeny a glimpse into what your life was really about. They may be too busy now to take a look, but the day will come when they will find interest. That day came for me just a few weeks ago.
See ya. Carey
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I have some more loaded on the Facebook site. Feel free to use whatever.
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Gaining ground in some areas and losing it in others...that's what I like about life....always the see-saw and never the same.
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The photos were terrific. Got any you want to give away, that would an interesting canvas?
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...and best wishes to you in all your endeavors in the New Year! It could be worse. You might have a bigger house!! I have never brought my "rat-pack" self into balance with the guy who appreciates clean, simple, useful.
Ah, so be it...
Your aspirations are commendable. I am rooting for you to achieve all your heart desires!
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The ever-present tension that we have in life between passivity and activism (which you have so poignantly described) may best be resolved by the Spirit's leading...in some situations, one way; in other situations, the other way. We believe we will fully understand this paradox when we meet face to face with the One who is the Lion and the Lamb, crucified and yet living within us. Then we shall see clearly, not through the glass darkly.
Thanks for your thoughtful postings.
Carey
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Here's to hoping that we can do more of it in the future.
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It is not our job to make sure that God is represented in a legislative way in the earth—but rather in a relational way.
Amen!! I couldn't have said it better. Have a blessed Christmas, my brother.
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Since writing I have listened to the tribute album several times and am once again impressed by his poetic understanding of life. The video is great. Thanks for stopping by.
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You are so right on, my brother!!
Blessings on you and yours!
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If you would like to watch a music video of Pierce Pettis performing Nod Over Coffee, you can see it my blog. I also posted the full lyrics to the song.
I appreciate you keeping Mark's music alive.
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Same to you my friend....same to you.
Those many years at the prison on Thursday night were "...faith expressing itself through love".
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Let's just believe, as the old carol says in "Jesus, Lord at thy birth." At his birth, he was already Lord. He didn't evolve into that role.
We believe that, and the Spirit of Peace will take care of the rest, which includes defining what Christianity is.
Remember, too, He won't be asking me about what someone else did or believed. Nor will He be asking you about you. He'll be asking you what did Terry believe about that baby in the manger who was later crucified. And he'll ask what did you do with that belief.
Merry Christmas
C
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Although I do watch limited TV, I refuse to subscribe to a cable or satellite service. I am amazed that people pay over $350 per year for TV. If I tried to sell you something for $350 that you knew would only last a year before you had to replace it, you probably wouldn't buy it. With the contractual obligation required by cable and satellite providers, that is essentially what they are doing. Sorry, I can buy much better things with which to entertain myself.
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Thanks, I needed that.
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There is really wisdom in what you speak. Why do we pigeon hole everything and then try and duplicate it as if repetition is the way into the kingdom of God. Not that the wheel has to be re-invented every day (every Sunday) but somehow our patterns have defined us rather than us defining the things around us.
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Dance away, my brother, even as we carry the responsibilities of our given jobs, the "burden" of the love God rests easy upon our souls. We are completed in Him.
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There is a time to laugh at circumstances and continue. There's also a time to weep. There's a time to dance in worship. Blessed are those who mourn. I was moved by the worship video and enjoyed it. I think the only danger (forgive my analytical nature) is thinking worship always looks a certain way.
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Good point...you are not a mind reader. The post was in haste and I probably did not let you in on my thought process which is....
One minute the weight of the world is on that guy and the next moment he is dancing as if in the spirit. It seems all his problems have been washed away.
Reality says they are still there and he will have to deal with them tomorrow or some other time.
Yet at the same time I fully believe that we can walk victoriously in the midst of our enemies.
Maybe it is just that I haven't allowed myself that space in a while and need to find the time (after the catalog goes to the printer) to dance a little myself.
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I think it is easy, but that depends on to what exactly "it" refers!
8^)
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Amen!
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Here here! I'm with ya.
Thought you might like this from Wired. Very funny.
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/commentary/alttext/2006/02/70220
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Yes, it is interesting what comes out in the form of a blog. Mark was much like another "inside/outsider" musician Rich Mullins in the sense that he really kept asking the hard questions and left the scene much to soon. Keith Green also comes to mind. Thanks for your input.
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I guess "being real" means different things to different people. My sense, like yours in a way, is that the cry comes from knowing that life is short and we don't always tell the truth even to ourselves. That we live in a system that doesn't value "biblical reality" but is rather a make it up as you go along culture. I longed to be real with my mother but lived with the frustration while she was alive that she couldn't "go there" for some reason. She wanted a son on her terms and that is pretty much what she got. All the answers I had found in living my life and wanted to share were somehow not within her realm to accept. I am really still working on what "being real" means. Thanks.
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Thanks Terry for this tribute to Mark Heard. My favorite story about Mark Heard is when he got a bunch of musicians together with the instructions to play stupid. As the session went on he would interrupt and say, "Play it stupider". By the end of the session they had created a piece of sentimental Christian junk. Sadly, according to the story, the piece was a hit.
Though I'm not positive on the details I'm sure the basic story is true as it was told to me by someone who was at the session.
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I read the line,
"I just wanna be real"
and know this is the heart cry of many brothers and sisters. When our attempts to be whole and in the spirit come up leaving us feeling unsatisfied, we are reduced to cries such as this. The lack we sense may have its source in a variety of fallen problems, but we are all desiring to be able to say, "We love God," and have that be an authentic statement of our experience internally. Authenticity of love is the motivation. It is the real "right" one!
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Sign me up! I've bailed on TV like caffeine. Once I got it out of my system I found I didn't need it that much. I still watch occasional cartoons with the kids or a history special, but everything else is just in 30 second commercial sized bites. For now I've dropped the obsession to see every episode of my 2 or 3 favorite shows.
Still there is that hope in me that a reasonably pure, well-written show will come along wherein I'll feel the tug of eternal analogies - seeing truth unwittingly mirrored (about the Bride of Christ in great love stories for instance).
But, for now, consider me part of the boycott.
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Not sure what to say on this one. I checked out on TV a while ago, though since we have one will watch something occasionally. I really like Lydia's Cooking on the public broadcast station.
I never watch a show all the way through. Nothing captivates me.
I like old movies, though. I am really captivated by the new technology. I look at TV's costing way over what I can spend and think about buying one. Can I justify such to watch a selected set of old movies?
Funny how I find myself in both world's at once. I am not entertained by what is called entertainment, but I really want to own the stuff that delivers the entertainment.
At this minute, my watching some special that includes includes the latest "greatest pianist in the world."
Should she not be doing so? Should she be able to do so on the latest version of TV's because it would allow her a greater sense of being present in his concert?
How is what she does in her down time different from me enjoying blogs?
Just rambling.
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It is really not so much about TV as it is about buying and selling. Hollywood sells via cable and I buy. They control the whole relationship. I really don't have a say. The internet has changed the way we do business. It is all about CSR (Customer Relationship Management).
What I guess I am saying is that I don't like the way they are controlling my relationship with them. I like the freedom of choosing (so do you) what level I relate to them (having a TV or not). I don't factor into their metrics anymore.
This is not rocket science. There are imperfections in the relationship. I would like them to take my views into consideration and not just look at the bottom line at every turn.
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I haven't had a TV since the '80's so don't really know what you're talking about(though we do watch 24 on dvd) but it sounds like you're trying to bail the Titanic with a coffee can. I did happen to be viewing one this weekend as I was watching my alma mater LSU win the SEC championship, and I noticed that this week's fare included a "Victoria's Secret Fashion Show." So glad I checked out years ago. If I was young an single, don't think I could pass that one up. What's the world coming to?
C
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I used to be involved in many activist activities. I did a lot of work in the pro life movement and I was also fighting for the rights of those with disabilities living in Los Angeles. I've lost my passion for activism. I'm not sure why. Perhaps I'm just tired of conflict. Perhaps I'm discouraged by the sin in our own camp. We should not, however, tire of doing good, so a TV boycott sounds like a good start.
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I can't help but think (all the contrary evidence notwithstanding) that a couple of days of a "nation-wide" TV blackout would benefit us all. I am sometimes caught between the "...that's the way it is and it won't change until Jesus comes back" or the Christian activism type profile. I think the Frances Shaffer model would suit us better. He said in one of his books that if there had been more Christian lawyers, Roe v Wade would have turned out different.
(a huge leap but somehow connected to activism) At this point in history, most blacks are living in a self-genocide mode are are having more abortions done than whites percentage wise.
Bishop Wellington Boone said that if things in the black community continue at present course they will only have half as many people in just a few years.
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That sounds like a great idea to me. When my wife and I were first married we didn't have a TV. I don't think we really missed it, but it bothered friends and relatives that we didn't have one. For the next twenty years or so, someone would give us a TV, we'd have it for several years until it broke, we'd be without a TV, this would bother friends and relatives and someone would give us a new TV.
I'm not anti TV, but I don't see that it adds much to our household. Asking the networks to do better and finding alternatives is, I think, a constructive approach.
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I agree..all is His, and His Truth is written on everyone's heart. The rebellion has muddied much, and hearts that love the darkness will attack God's Truth even as they hear it within themselves.
When artists of any field explore their depths in an effort to know, as this is what drives them innately, how could they not stumble across nuggets of Him and express it?
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Like life itself, his paintings were layer upon layer of paint that seemed directed with precise brush-strokes—not tentative stabs at a canvas that was destined to end up in a closet. Like Dylan, Van Gogh took what he had and fashioned a place for himself not fully understanding the impact he would have on culture.
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I would love to get you started on Theo. I've had the great joy of seeing some of Van Gogh's paintings up close as well. I'm not an art expert, or even very knowledgeable about art, but I can say that seeing those paintings changed the way I look at the world. They revealed a beauty I didn't see before.
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Don't even get me started on Theo—a man who basically provided his brother with art supplies that kept him painting. I have seen VanGogh up close and personal at the Met or MOMA and his detail is without a doubt incredible and God given. That he would persevere all those years is a testament to God's faithfulness.
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I was just kidding about rap. For some reason the chuckle under my breath and the twinkle in my eye didn't make it on to the printed page. I guess there are limitations in this virtual world.
I'm suggesting that the relationships amongst artist, art and God are more intimate than we might think. In his Letters to Theo, Van Gogh writes of works of art being on a par with preaching. I probably wouldn't go that far, but I do think there's a truth there worth exploring.
The rapper lives and moves and has his or her being in God.
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Based solely on being a Christian for many years and a sense that I have and biblical stuff about the subject I have gleaned along the way which I can't chapter and verse right this minute—yes, music was created by God but some has been subverted. I think that rap is a form of music which has been filtered through a black genocide culture. However some of the technology and sampling and so forth is pretty cool. Even Reggae music. If Bob Marley had just had some of the right influences in his life things would have been way different. And can you imagine if Fleetwood Mac had been Christian.
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It's interesting that you relate all having an immediate relationship with God with creation. I suspect that's very profound.
The other connection that comes to mind is "in him we live and move and have our being". Paul is quoting a pagan!
Is it going to far to say that all music is God's music (perhaps all but rap)?
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John 3 would attest to this: All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
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There's an old teaching that all of us, as humans, have an immediate relationship with God. This teaching has fallen on hard times out of fear that it undermines Scriptural teachings about the fall and salvation. Perhaps we should reconsider. It does give us a way of understanding how all truth is God's truth, all beauty is God's beauty and all goodness is God's goodness.
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Amen!...and if such is not our experience, how can we say that Christ in us is the hope of glory?
I rejoice with you in this insight.
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It was just this morning that I was granted an insight into what "....having a heart after God's own." really meant. There is something deep in us that only resonates when we are in that union with Him. So despite the flaws and wrong turns I have made in my life, God sees that seed of hope buried deep within and is in the process of pulling it to the surface of who I am.
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I appreciate your willingness to hear the soul of someone cry against or in the truth of their lives, and thus they strike a resonant chord with our humanity, even though we are Christians who have a hope.
I think there is a certain compassion in recognizing the humanity of these who know not Christ, yet artfully express themselves within the human condition. That is, in being a Christian, we have not forgotten what it means to be human without hope. There is a relatability there, which we can use to speak of the hope we have.
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I parted ways with Joni 'long about the time of LA Express. She had had, by that time, too many lovers for her own good. Her later work took a turn toward cynicism that did not agree with my salvatory direction in early 80's.
But you're certainly right about the early stuff. She resonated with the heart and soul of the poets. My favorite lines of hers are:
Sisotobelle Lane,
anywhere else now would seem very strange. The seasons are changing;
they always do
they always do...
...eating muffin buns and berries by the steamy kitchen window, we always do...
we like the view.
C.
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If you are interested, I think I finished this thought at:
Reluctant Servant
Enjoy the ride.
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I guess it can be a gentle rage....I really don't know. It seems we just need to keep riding until the very end and not let culture tell us anything different. It is a hard topic and perhaps I didn't do it justice this time around. It really doesn't seem to be as settled as some of the rest of my thoughts.
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Gee, I was sort of looking forward to a gentle entry into the long good night.
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We were born for such a time as this.
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Thanks for the good advice at the end: "Let's not let our bad habits rule our lives—rather practice doing what we know we should—the rest will take care of itself."
Really, I think life is all about that, and doing it more and more, better and better. Then sit back and watch while He really does take care of us, in ways that are wondrous to us when we realize them.
C
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I thought you would...as I read it I couldn't help but think that he is a member of your tribe.
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I enjoyed the poem very much. Bucky's theology is fairly sound. "God is a verb" ties in very nicely with I John 4:8, "God is love."
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Once again I thank you for reminding me that I am a part of a great fellowship, with a great quest.
I wonder...if there is a 21-year-old "Terry Henry" type guy out there now, today, November 2007...what would the catalog be that would today inspire him as deeply as you were inspired by Whole Earth Catalog in '79? And what would it take to assemble and publish such a catalog? Might be a significant project.
Keep up the great writing!
Carey
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I hadn't thought about the The Whole Earth Catalogue in while! What I have thought of lately is just what you describe here...growing older and how it seems to alter your perspectives to the very core.
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There is of course more to the story than what I related and I am sure there are some things bubbling under the surface of my life that need to be dealt with in relation to this...more later.
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Terry, very successful post!
I had less connection with my dad than you. He never knew the man I had become, but more so, he had been a lost soul all his life and I didn't trust his opinion anyway. I could be wrong, but what I have put together about our fathers' generation, is what you have described here. They prized a man who made things happen in the material world. I think, also, there was a willingness to acknowledge self-respect and individual integrity. Your gentle confrontation and standing up for yourself gained his respect and quieted his discontentment about his son, though in that moment he knew not how to tell you.
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I am grateful that you were not put off by the initial poetry thing. I don't think I really did that part justice but you never know.
I am looking for "visceral" experience in Christianity as opposed to purely visual eye candy and I know you are as well.
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1. About this phrase that you used: "also how the feelings that surround our success or lack of can ebb and flow much like the tides at the beach." Yes. We are so subjective...our feelings making us like emotional pincushions. Half the battle is just obtaining objectivity.
2. What you saw you dad saying on the video must have been an emotional trial. But I think you handled it well,like grabbing the reigns on a skitzy horse (our emotions) and snapping them back into submission. The other thought about this: We may be more like our fathers than we like to admit. What pre-judgements do we carry in our hearts about our own children's "success" in life?
3. Sometimes I think this tension between generations is built into our genes. Sophocles took it to its most extreme conclusion when he told the story of Oedipus Rex.
4. Thank you for the excellent conclusion to this posting, "godliness with contentment." That's what I'm after. And I hope my kids are too; they just haven't figured that out yet. I didn't either, until, oh...a couple of years ago?
5. Thanks, Terry. This has been one of your best blogs.
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Oh, there is room for us. We are common voices in the land, and the land now beckons those who live off her to voice themselves to all the others in the whole world. It is an unprecendented time in history. Who will listen? That is not our job. 8^)
Joining with you is to my benefit and blessing. Please do not thank me for loving you. It is what I live for in Him.
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Yes. And I appreciate the melancholy too.
Melancholy in autumn is just a skip away from deep joy, whereas in the winter it becomes a challenge that must be seriously approached... like a long hill to climb... But it never fails, it we utilize it, to be productive, and the coasting down the other side provides a satisfying return on our emotional investments.
btw...I like the smooth and simple lines of your new masthead photo,
& also the bloom of contentment that I see in Sandi's smile (and yours.) Yours is a strong witness. Keep up the good work.
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It is a struggle sometimes to not get caught up in the cultural mania. I remember as a child and teen having the world's values pumped into me and they just don't go gentle into that good night.
It is even around when one thinks about what is good as opposed to what is famous. Where are "our" thoughts among all the others in blogland vying for someone to read them and or be moved by them.
Even in the midst of all of this I feel there is room for us. Thanks for joining me.
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Amen. Being content, I think, is a state of grace; but in order to know it, one must choose to seek contentment rather than seeking everything else to be happy.
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Part of what was not said in my latest post is the fact that I believe that the alternative to fossil fuel is out there just waiting for some George Washington Carver type to discover it. I remember a teaching by our very own DED that implied that Carver was number one a Christian and number two asked God for something to do to help mankind. According to DED's story, Carver was told to look at the peanut over and over again and the rest is history.
With all of his many inventions, (Axle Grease, Bleach, Chili Sauce, Cream, Creosote, Dyes, Fuel Briquettes, Instant Coffee, Insulating Board, Linoleum, Mayonnaise, Meal, Meat Tenderizer, Metal Polish, Milk Flakes, Mucilage, Rubbing Oils, Salve, Soil Conditioner, Shampoo, Shoe Polish, Shaving Cream, Synthetic Marble, Synthetic Rubber, Talcum Powder, Vanishing Cream, Wood Stains, Wood Filler, and Worcestershire Sauce) Carver only patented 3 because he believed that money should not be made from his inventions but should be freely shared.
That's "altruism" plain and simple.
So, in a round-about-way it is probably DED's fault that I look at things the way I do.
Be blessed.
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Terry:
You exposed the most fundamental problem of our nation, even our world, when you wrote: "Doesn't somebody have to produce something substantive to have any real economic value(?)
When you get right down to it, however, what you do in your back yard (agriculture) is the basis of all economic activity. That, and extracting natural resources (mining.)
The big agriculture companies probably want to produce the most profitable cash crop, hence corn for bio-fuel. This saddens me. But based on what I've been reading lately, including your blog, this is definitely going to displace affordable resources away from people of low/moderate income.
However, I do trust free enterprise, more than government intrusion, to find a way for us out of this impasse. People may have to give up their cars and TVs so that they'll have room in the budget for food, but they may exit the experience with their priorities in a more appropriate order.
Carey
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Thanks....I like the looks of yours as well. It was an eleven day space between this post and the last one....a dry time in my mind while it rained all around us.
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Hey, Terry, I like the new look of the website!
Funny how wide ranging a converstaion can become.
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It is hard not to do your best when a person has so many good friends cheering them on and maybe even a great cloud of witnesses as well. May your kind words to me be multiplied unto you many times fold.
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The last few days have been immense and gratifying to the eye. It was great to read about your success on the golf course. 8^)
Your descriptions of the last light of day was good, too.
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The colors this year are absolutely amazing. It more than made up for last year's fizzle.
Enjoyed your perspective on it, too.
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Recognizing the trap that too much information can bring is the first step in freeing ourselves of the need to deal with it. I do have an overall desire to be simple but always tend to put more weight on understanding everything around me than is really good for my mental health.
I do feel however that I am reaching that balance point where the winds of all the thoughts I am surrounded by can't throw me off balance as they have in the past.
I can see us standing together as the howling winds coming at us try to uproot us. At some point, perhaps ten feet in front of us, the winds are divided into two streams that pass by us on our left and right and leave us unharmed. We can hear the roar but remain calm as if in the middle of mighty storm which can't touch us.
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It must have been something that He wanted to say because in re-reading that last paragraph I sense something that is beyond me as well. Thanks
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That's a good perspective. I guess what I was feeling was that since the info is out there and is important, then it was my duty to filter through more of it in order to know that I am reaching for all the right things. And in this I was quickly reaching overload knowing that I would never be able to understand or assimilate even a fraction of what is available to me. But in gradual movement and rest there is a peace that He will let me know what it is I need to understand when it is time for me to understand—I just had to get the feeling out and appreciate your response.
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There are so many voices!! I realized that very soon after I allowed myself to think beyond a box and began to uncover what other folks thought.
Something about this post brings me a great deal of comfort.
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I find peace in your restful ending to that.
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I have often had the same question (when will the questions end). It's nice to hear it from your perspective.
Sometimes I can't take the blogs anymore, and I step away for a day or two from reading. But I always come back.
Most days, I'm just really at peace with the questions themselves. Is that odd? I must be really postmodern, I guess. But I just like the fact that we have the ability to ask the many questions that are being asked. Some of the answers are very important, mind you. But so many of them don't really matter in the big scheme of things. It's all about finding our way in the life that is in Christ.
Now we see through a glass darkly - and I'm ok with that. Very ok. By faith, I know what (who) is on the other side of that dark glass. And I look forward to seeing Him face to face.
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Thank you for sharing your picture-perfect Saturday with us, and its accompanying meditations. I especially like this thought: "We are on-board the big story and attending at the same time the small ones that surround us and make up our days."
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I have not read the book but it sounds interesting from what I read about it on Wikipedia. And I quote:
"And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."
go after experience rather than knowledge
I think I am hard-wired to go after knowledge...I mean what do you do after the experience but try to understand it or talk about it or write or paint about it.
There is a site where it can be downloaded as well.
Thanks for the lead.
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I relate...more than one period of growth through a dormant time in my life. Ever read The Cloud of Unknowing?
8^)
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Amen.
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May your ride today be on the wings of the Spirit; and these days be times of refreshing and renewal of your confidence and rest in the grace of the Father.
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The poem is grand. The last stanza has quite a kick...the treasured state of god-man (Psalms 82:6 tells us we are
"gods") with numbered days. How eloquently the poet describes our elevated position completely bounded by His sovereignty!
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Hey...forget about me (LOL)—how'd you like the poem?
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I've always known you were doing well, despite the unsettledness precipitated by events in your life during the last year. But thanks for the clarification!
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Thanks for the kiss and the comments as well. I certainly think that influence is all around us and most of the time we are not that aware of where it comes from or where it goes.
It is kinda like folk music—it is a blend of what we have heard from childhood on. Woody Guthrie influenced Bob Dylan and Dylan has his thousands.
I remember "discovering" Dylan in the 11th grade. It wasn't until much later that I became aware of the fact that I was only one of many who had—in their own little towns—discovered him at the same time.
Life is like that I guess.
In all of this I am more than victorious—I just need to fully believe it and start living the part.
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Here I am about to comment on your blog entry and my mind is preoccupied with the fact that my writing is influencing your discussion even before I read it. There, I said it.
I think memory is a great thing and a terrible thing. That you understand your memories are subjective is a great step in the right direction. The least objective person is usually the one who thinks they are most objective.
Do all guys deal with the father relationship? I know I do. I am blessed that my father is alive today and I can talk to him. I called him last night. At the same time, we are on such different wavelengths that it is sometimes more frustrating than if he were gone. Don't get me wrong, I am truly glad I still have him with me. This is what I mean... I have questions about his thoughts and feelings when he seems to have never thought about them. He seems stuck in the day to day, here and now. I don't think he ever asked the questions that I am asking.
You said "...I have mostly made peace..." I hear you. For me, it is hard to reconcile the love that my father gives me with the love that I long for. He just doesn't get it. He can't.
Roll that movie again, but this time with feeling... I'll bet it is a lot longer than 3 hours!
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I think the empathy ship has sailed on that one but appreciate your sensitivity to it anyway. I think we are all making headway in this area and will keep you posted on my progress in that area.
My buddy Alan, when asked about what I do with what I am in the memory arena, told me that we don't have to get rid of memories, just file them in the history file where we can access them when we want or need to but don't have them to use as filters anymore.
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Sorry I didn't write any empathetic thoughts about sorting out your dad memories, but I did relate. It is hard to sort what happened from what we think happened. I think I gave up on such where my dad is concerned, but then I have so very few memories of him anyway.
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Thanks for your comments. I added a link to Jim's site as well.
You are right about the subjective nature of things. Is that why Paul said that he no longer knew anybody after the flesh but only by the spirit (can't find the reference but know it's there).
Part of what I was also trying to articulate was a desire to set the record straight sort of. Did my dad really walk ten miles to school in the snow and all of those types of memories which really might be made up or was it really a story he told about someone else or maybe they were making fun of something that someone else said and I missed the point.
Not being in tune with my dad's family all these years I think has brought about its own conclusion. As I move forward I will indeed try to filter my memories (good and bad) of these people through that filter of love and forgiveness rather than try to hold them responsible for something they can't even remember.
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Over at Jimazing Thoughts, Jim's latest post sifts through how false belief systems in our souls guide/control our emotional responses to people and situations. You are exploring the vagaries of memory and the manner in which we store those memories as we choose to do so through our own subjective belief system. Interesting. I have been journaling about similarities I see among a very disparate group of bloggers I read. Here is another.
Conclusions I draw are people are innately and unceasingly subjective. There is little objective reality we share. Which for me becomes strong evidence that only walking in love toward others can be a shared reality. It is the only way to "agree" with anyone since you agree on a shared state of respect for one another. The material world becomes something you experience together but such sharing is not based on perceiving that material world "in sync" perceptually. I think this position allows us to "float" effectively on the currents of other's perceptions and experience the deepest sense of satisfaction.
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Franklin street away from 15-501 on the left...kind of a refurbished little cluster of shops. This banner is on the backside of the shops...view from parking lot. There is another big banner in front courtyard as well. Thanks for asking.
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That is a strikingly colorful banner...a bold artistic statement by Jessika. I applaud it.
Since I've spent many hours walking around Chapel Hill, I'm very curious about the location. The photo does not include enough range for me to identify the location. My guess: Franklin Street or Rosemary Street?
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Rain glistens on your stones
drips from your leaves
change is in the air
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As I was sitting outside today and relaxing from work as well as play, I had the thought that there is really more to this life than what I am seeing—feeling—experiencing. I am only walking in my boots and can't see from anyone elses vantage point.
Tuesday morning, unable to sleep through the night, I got up earlier than usual and read some poetry and the book of Ruth, one of my favorite stories in the bible. Ruth told Naomi that she would go with her and serve her God and live with her people. While gleaning she caught Boaz's eye and in short order became his wife and the mother of Obed who was King David's grandfather. From losing a husband in one chapter to entering the linage of Jesus in the end—that's quite a trip. Hopefully this speaks volumes about the rest of ours as well.
Thanks for the encouragement.
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It seems to me that the thing to remember is that we won't reach our final destination until we meet Jesus. If we ever feel like we have arrived we are sadly mistaken. I have often times said in life that I wish I had a book of my life so I could flip to the back and see how everything turns out. The thing is that would really take the adventure out of the ride..It is an amazing and scary thing to go around a curve and not know what you are going to see. If we continue to follow God's path, then the things we can discover will be breathtaking and life giving. Thanks for the perspective Terry. It is good to remember that we are all on the same journey even if we are in different stages of it!
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Life is more of the line upon line variety than it is of the four walls kind—your perspective has made me feel a little better about my trip as well. You are missed also.
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I've often related the spiritual life as a road trip. We want to know the final destination - the big goals in life. We want to hear "the plans I have for you, says the Lord", but somehow we think that the small stuff doesn't always qualify.
If I took off from Sarasota for Flagstaff, AR I would need to know more than just the final destination. I need to know that when I get to the end of the street, to turn left. And when I get to the third stoplight, turn right and so on and so forth. I don't want to know all the directions at one time, I'll just get confused. What I want is somebody to tell me my very next move or turn.
We all desire our final destination with God and though we know where we are ending up eventually, we still need the moment by moment course directions in our life. Just because I haven't arrived doesn't mean I'm not a on the journey. In fact, it's the small directions that prove I'm on the road. So, being in process isn't necessarily looking for the final goal or destination, but rather the next stop or turn along the route. It's OK if I don't know where God wants me 20 years from now, but I sure do want to know where God wants me today.
After re-reading my thoughts, they seem just vague to either make sense or make me sound like an idiot. You decide.
I miss all you guys.
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Thank you for being a Joshua/Caleb in the wilderness of contemporary life where we Christians are seeking the promised land. Your ramblings inspire me, and commendably always seem to end with a positive contribution to my own quest to keep both the forest and the trees in my sights. Keep up the good work of exploring that uncharted territory.
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Yes and amen to that. Dictionary dot com lists this definition for authentic:
not false or copied; genuine; real
And at this point, I really can't see a better goal for all of us.
Thanks......
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This open to the world experience of posting thoughts/dialogue is an interesting twist to life...another blogger wrote he is glad everyday Christians have access to one another through this technology. Good? Bad? Does it matter?
Last night my best friend (my wife) and I talked for a while about the "search"
versus what we have. We came to the conclusion that for whatever it is we feel like we are missing, we have more than we realize.
I dreamed last night that I had a series of tests to take and one section of the test was in Spanish to test my Spanish. Someone asked me if I spoke Spanish and I replied no, and that had me a little worried. Sometimes the morning feels like the test is about to begin and I haven't even learned the language yet.
Practically the dream gave me a new appreciation for what Hispanic kids must experience in school here in the US. Mom or dad or both have brought them here. It is not their choice to being tested in another language on a daily basis.
It is my choice to seek out the spiritual life. I have decided this morning the search is not for something specifically different than what I already know...it is to find a place of feeling authentic in what I do know.
Having friends like you who question, and push at meanings, and hold forth hope in the process are a blessing.
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Well said! It was never my aim to put you in a place where you felt you had to defend yourself. I guess I was being overly simplistic about a subject that seems somehow to slide away from me as I attempt to approach it.
Knowing you as I do, I fully understand that you have arrived—however we might end up wording that. I am still "working" at arriving and know that that seems silly to admit. I know that you accept me in this endevour even though I know I have also been redeemed by the One who sits at the right hand of the Father.
I do believe that I am making progress in my understanding of what all of this means. The church system I was a part of for many, many years didn't want to see me set free—I might then feel free to give my increase/tithe to someone other than them or begin to do other things which would not make the watchers of the "church in a box" happy.
We remember another friend who told us time and time again that we didn't have to invite the Holy Spirit into our meetings as if somwhow He had up and left us at the end of the last one. And that the work was already done and all that we had to do was quit trying to finish it ourselves and accept it. Some part of me understood and another, maybe bigger part, struggled to get my head around what really sounded like the truth.
I firmly believe that it is for freedom that we have been set free—I am aiming for that and thanks for your help and understanding.
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We prefer "ad infinitum"' to "'ad nauseum," because we are, in fact, now in eternity, and are destined to join the Master at some point.
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I thought I would flesh out your description of me as "fully believes he has arrived for all practical purposes." Your readers may perceive such as a bit of blind arrogance. I will borrow from another blogger over at Jimazing Thoughts. He speaks of the difference between grace accountability and legalistic accountability. Legalistic accountability says pushing the rock up the mountain is your spiritual duty and will bring you into maturity, and your brothers and sisters are at work to monitor your progress. Grace accountability says Jesus has placed the rock on the mountain top by finishing the spiritual work needed at the cross. So, by faith live with the rock on the mountain top, and your brother and sisters are eagerly supporting your position of faith.
I cannot earn anything. God is pleased when I accept that He accepts me. Does that mean that I have nothing left to mature in? Yes and No. Yes, there is nothing left for me to attempt which can move me toward maturity with the result that I dwell in a grace-filled life. God is not withholding some sweet gift until I prove myself able. He has done the work. I am righteous before Him because of Jesus' righteousness. Period. My responsibility, and therefore the stuff in which I need to mature, is to learn resting in His in-dwelling Presence. From the place of communion with the Holy Spirit, I can live life making holy choices that reflect the sweet fruit of the Spirit. If I forget the rock is at the top and go running down the mountain into all my own self-effort, the experience will lack life. He still works with me on the mountainside though and brings me to understand how I made a bad decision of working on holiness again on my own. Under grace, I am restored immediately to the mountain top. Under legalism (even established by me for me), I am given a smaller rock or a larger rock (a function of believing in taking small steps or in believing I need to learn my lesson by a greater load) at the bottom of the mountain to try again.
Camus came to the conclusion we must see this work/rework trap as impossible to escape and that one may be happy within the effort. I think Camus must have been close to the experience of Solomon who wrote of the futility of life in Ecclesiastes. There is nothing which satsifies for long and removes the monotony and futility of life, not even a world cruise (I have a brother-in-law who has been on several and he cannot sit down to a simple meal and be satisfied. He is a sour old man with a lot of earthly experiences that are the supposed pinnacle of his success, yet he is none the happier.) However, experiencing the Father's love and dwelling in union with His in-dwelling Spirit is full. He fills all who are in Him in all that is needed.
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I guess that is the point and also the point of arrival. I remember reading Brother Lawrence's Practicing the Presence of God in which he tells of his desire to stay in the kitchen and cook rather than go back to his room and get on his knees and pray as they were required to do at several points during the day....that this interupted his communion with God.
That I seek to find a key (or keys) to healing as a process leading up to a fullfillment of His presence in me may very well be a non-direct course and destined to disappoint. But that is why I have friends like you to help me see the obstacles inherant in such a journey and plot a different course. I have to remember that it has only been several months since I have allowed myself the freedom to begin looking outside the box I found myself in after 22 years at LWCF. I am doing better than most and not as well as some....I am closer to home than I realize.
"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
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I enjoyed hearing "young" Terry's voice.
I think at some point we realize the struggle is not to heal some part of us, but to completely let go in faith and just be in union with the Spirit of Jesus within us. This may only be semantically different from what you describe, or maybe I have misunderstood you. I just know in my own attempt to resolve the "man at odds" feeling, I quit trying. Sometimes my insecurities or misguided understanding of others fails the ideal of connection with Him in spirit, but nonetheless, I move forward knowing only Him within me is life.
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The mountains of North Carolina are indeed a special and alluring place—especially as you note in the fall. My bike rides through the back country have once again stirred in me the delight I felt when I first moved here. I guess something else I was feeling while writting that last post was the sense of being in your life and also being outside of it (an observer) at the same time. Living as a perpetual tourist and permanent resident within the same lifetime—lifeline.
I have always had this impression that it is possible to find romance within the routine of life. That the simple act of preparing coffee in the morning can be more an event than a patterned response—served up everyday at the exact same time in the exact same way.
In other words I want to crack open the atom of my life and let the electron free to rotate around a much expanded proton. Good luck with that, eh!
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The thing about traveling the world is that you never get enough. Even when you've had enough, you haven't. When I quit Samaritan's Purse I had decided I was pretty much done with international travel. But since then I've gone on to work with them in Australia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Ecuador and other places. And I realized that I really do like getting out of the country about once a year. Having the job that I do allows me these opportunities.
I had never dreamed when I was kid that I would one day travel the world and see the things I've seen. I'm so thankful for that. But just like Dorothy, I come to realize there's no place like home. I do feel a longing to get back to NC, especially in the autumn when there's a crisp breeze in the air and the leaves are dancing with vibrant colors (and praise). When the warm apple cider thaws those early chills. The fall festivals and county fairs. The drives through the back country with no agenda other than being there. It's very nearly paradise (at least my version anyway).
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As far as I know we are in this thing together and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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I ask if we can attempt to learn together knowing one another after the spirit?
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Well said Carey....our goal should be to associate with each other's aspirations—spurring one another on I think it is said in scripture. Rather than worry about each other's faults, it would be a better world if we gathered around our hopes and dreams and let the Lord work out the details.
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May our experience of each other be, not what we perceive each other to be, but what we aspire for us to be. And we have the rest of our lives for the working out of those hopes.
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70X7...absolutely! Coming to grips with the wonder of this is life-altering for me. It is not a license to sin. Yet, as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and begin to see the line between our sinfulness and our true self in Christ, we gain authenticity and stability as the whole person our new creation is. Among the functions of God's grace is that we are not condemned for our many failures to make this distinction between our nature of this world and His nature within us. Ever. In Christ Jesus there is no condemnation. He is constantly at work to complete the work He has begun. He accepts us no matter where we are along the path of lessons we must face to understand what He is doing in us.
Will some maintain a heart turned toward themselves and never understand, while justifying their love of sin by spouting 70x7. Possibly. Yet how can I back off in faith from God's order of redemption because some may abuse it? I rejoice in His great, wonderful spiritual economy that meets me daily in my exact condition and works with me there never holding my failures from yesterday against me, but using them instead as lessons. In the midst of such grace my love for Him grows and my understanding of how to be sinless in Him, for Him increases.
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Since I was a boy whose bare feet were stained by Georgia-red clay, I have loved the sound of cicada and katydid. Your words put me in those sounds and in my youth.
So what is and what do we do?
Nothing and all the depth of that cosmos you attempt to capture in words. He has done all that needs to be done to unite us to the Father. Our search for satisfaction in any form is over. The depth we involve ourselves in is entering back into the chaos around us and bringing forth all the love our faith will release.
Or so it seems to me.
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I am overwhelmed with information about how I got to where I am and how to get to where I am headed. When Christ said 70 times seven he meant just that: it may take a while to get to the point of living in today and not what we have stored in our minds.
I am gald that you are my friend and are able to look beyond my faults and and appreciate what God has made me to be.
More later...stay tuned.
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I'm glad we clicked onto th the katydids and cicadas tonight thank you for that,
but what about the "In reality there is really much too much happening..." story?
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Thanks. I take it where I can find it.
“Life has got a habit of not standing hitched. You got to ride it like you find it. You got to change with it. If a day goes by that don't change some of your old notions for new ones, that is just about like trying to milk a dead cow.”
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and now you become a humorist as well. I laughed out loud on this one!!
Thanks. I needed the comic relief. I have had one focused week on what I "had to do."
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Like somewhere between fine-dining and camping out perhaps.
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Your writing has the rhythm and power of a drum...typo's and thoughts running over your grammar are welcomed because the meat is good.
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It is amazing how each person must find truth for him or herself. That so many have said it better doesn't even deter us from getting on the wagon and giving a go at it. Giddy Up!
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Yes. Be here now. He not busy being born is busy dyin'
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¿Dónde está la estación de autobuses?
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lookingforthelongvoyage
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From a pencil pusher to a nail pounder—well put my friend.
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Terry, I have spent a good bit of time looking back over the past 6 years during the last few weeks. I knew the door was open to go to grad school back in 2001. When I finished, I was "sure" that a job in higher ed was next. After all, why else would I have gotten a MA? Not so fast my friend. The door was steadfastly shut. Even after "great" interviews the jobs always went to someone else. One in particular was disappointing. It was working with International Programs as Virginia Tech. My preferred area in Student Development at a school where I had lots of friends already. When it did not happen I questioned God as to why not. I felt peace that I was not supposed to be there. Disappointed, but peaceful at the outcome. It was as if I had missed something that was not going to be pleasant...
In the meantime my friend Kevin had taken me on at the start of his construction company. It was an open door for provision while I was looking for the "higher ed" job. Now, 4 years later, I work full time for a rapidly growing construction company and have a part time "higher ed" teaching job. The doors that open sometimes close and sometimes put you out into a hallway for you to utilize to find the next door. As Julie Andrews so aptly put it in The Sound of Music. When God closes a door He opens a window. I propose a toast to this discussion. Here is to the ride of our lives! Cheers mates!
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It is probably short-sighted of us to think in terms of days or weeks—although important not necessarily how we need to chart our success or lack thereof.
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I will do that.
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I am pleased and inspired by that entire rambling account of open doors during seven years of time...but this especially: " I guess you could say it was from blessing to blessing and not really get caught up in the transition phase when things don't look or feel to comfortable."
There is still an open door between brothers, even though the tribes have moved apart due to the closing of doors.
Carey
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That just about does it....doesn't it.
That's my kind of dictionary.....what is JILM?
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Most (if not all) people are a combination of temperaments, rather than one.
A slightly more thorough, though still abbreviated, glance at what makes a phlegmatic temperament (taken directly from the JILM website):
"Inclusion Strengths: the ability to perform tedious tasks, relate to both tasks and people, calm easygoing, extremely efficient and perfectionistic. The Phlegmatic in Inclusion can function quite well in a hostile social setting. Nothing “ruffles their feathers.”
Inclusion Weaknesses: unwillingness to become involved, tendency to be an observer rather than a participant, and use of a verbal defense that often hurts others.
Control Strengths: the tendency to be very practical, conservative, peace-loving and a good peace maker/arbitrator.
Control Weaknesses: indecisiveness, the tendency to procrastinate, and being very difficult to motivate. They use verbal defenses that often hurt others; it is used against anyone who tries to motivate or control them, particularly Cholerics.
Affection Strengths: well balanced, easygoing, non-demanding, calm and realistic in demands for love and affection.
Affection Weaknesses: unwillingness to become involved in deep relationships, tendency to be an observer only, rarely self-sacrificing, unemotional and inexpressive. Verbal defenses are used to protect low energy supply with regard to physical and sexual involvement."
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I had to go to the dictionary on phlegmatic. I have seen that word but never really knew what it meant. The American Heritage Dictionary says phlegmatic is:
- Having or suggesting a calm, sluggish temperament; unemotional.
And as our friend Denny would probably say I may resemble that—although sluggish is not a word that I would use to describe either you or me—I guess we would have to ask our wives.Knowing what drives us to make the decisions we make might be a place to start looking at the dynamic that I think I may be reaching for.
I enjoyed being in business for myself but was under priced during a period when everything computery cost an arm and a leg. I was not disciplined to put money away when I bought new equipment and there was always something coming up that needed money like tires, washing machines and the like. Once you fall behind financially, it is hard to get out of the hole unless you have a rich uncle pass away or you make a lot more than you spend.
I guess part of the daily living this stuff out is trusting in the right things and indeed is where I find myself. I trusted in the church for a long time and now find myself on the outside of that in a good way I would have to say. Good because I am being forced to find my trust in Christ—bad because I am so many years behind where I sometimes think I should be in all of this.
All in all I have hope that a corner is being turned and that a freshness is being restored to my ride.
Thanks for your continued perspective.
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I can't speak to your specific situation, but I do know that being a freelancer is a difficult proposition, especially for people of our temperaments. I'm a phlegmatic (and so are you to a certain degree) and thus I don't always have the drive to "sell" myself to clients. I take a laid back approach to looking for work, believing that God would provide the way He always has - just in time and seemingly out of the blue. It's somewhat of a flaw for someone who is in business for himself. In some ways it's good, though. I've always been a little gun shy about purchasing equipment, only buying something when I need it or I know it will make me money, and I haven't bought on credit. I don't take chances very often and so the risk/reward factor is low. Maybe I shouldn't be a freelancer - I don't know. This is something I've been thinking of lately.
It might not be so much of a question of trusting in God as it is discovering what drives you to make the decisions you make. Ultimately, our life decisions should come from our trust in Him. But our understanding of Him is often clouded by our personalities, our own rose-colored glasses of who we are and how we became that way, which is much more holistic than simply the current situations we find ourselves in.
I'm not sure I answered your question - not that I should or even that you asked me specifically. But I do understand some of your frustration/confusion as you and I do have some similar rides, so to speak.
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...and we can't ask for a better blog posting than that. Terry, you have given us a poignant glimpse into the great drama of human endeavor.
Keep up the good work, but stay rested, now that you've had a little shabat.
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yes and amen
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If anyone were to ask me what I did for a week I would have to tell them I straightened by booksheves and organized my mail. I read a lot and took a trip to Asheville. It rained often and I had a lot of thoughts that I am processing.
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Your week sounds like a good shabat. I'm waiting to hear about Asheville, 'cause I lived there for five years.
Enjoy your ride.
C
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It is all kinda confusing to me as well. I am "Looking For The Long Ride" but also asking "What Does Your Ride Look Like" at the same time as I am describing mine. One of my biking friends didn't call me on the day of the wedding thinking that I wouldn't be taking a ride—which on that day I needed more than anything. I saw him along the way and he was surprised. It was a short ride but got me into a better place for the rest of the day. Thanks for stopping by—I am on vacation at home this week and maybe will have a chance to think a little.
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Oops. I think I've shamed Denny Barhite by using the wrong abbreviation for your blogsite. I incorrectly used WDYRLL when I should have used LFTLR. So sorry for the confusion.
TTFN.
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Glad to hear the weekend went well. It's been awhile since there's been such a long silence on WDYRLL. Glad you're back online.
Hearing you talk about the New River brings back alot of good memories of jumping in the river (in the summer, of course) with some old shoes and fishing rod and walking for hours, fishing and thinking. I really miss Boone in the summer (but not all of the tourists, which technically I am one now).
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May the Lord bless Joseph and Amanda's Union.
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I guess that is why we have digital cameras—to capture the images of our lives as we pass through them. Indeed it does seem a little to fast—especially as we grow older.
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Congrats! My youngest son has just started walking this week and 2 weeks ago my oldest daughter learned to ride her bike with no training wheels.
Ever feel like the ride is going a little too fast?
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Thanks. The wedding is at the Broyhill this Saturday and they will live in Carey. Joseph graduated from NC State in Engineering and Amanda is a teacher.
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Congratulations to Joseph and to you and Sandi. Will the wedding be in Boone? Where will they live after the wedding?
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Awesome! blessing. Congratulations to Joseph and Amanda, and to you and Sandi for a parenting job well-done. May the Lord be with them, and with you.
C
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reminds me of why I gave it up years ago. Thanks to you and others like you, who keep up that essential work.
C
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Reed,
I couldn't agree more. When I spoke up ten years ago at an elder's retreat to say that I didn't believe in a head pastor anymore, I had no clue that the end result of moving that piece of the puzzle would be what you have just stated.
I'm glad to know we now live together on the street, "In Him we live and move and have our being."
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Terry, I wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the external search when what we are desperately seeking is within us already. The more I got in tune with what God was doing "in" me the more out of sync I got with the "church" around me. The focus was all on outward ministry which I was not participating in at the time. It seems to be symptomatic of the program based design that most churches operate in. It seems that the focus is on destination or "getting it done/doing the stuff" opposed to journey and enjoying the process of being in the midst of doing. Doing is an outflow of Being. That is where I live and find Christ there with me at all times. I am not "driven" any more to "do" this or that. I simply "am" and let the rest flow from there. It makes for a much more peaceful and longer ride.
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Thanks for the kudos on my website. It is a work in progress for sure. Our mutual friend, ded told me to check your site out. I am impressed with your presentation and your thoughts.
I notice that Carey is a frequent commenter. I'm assuming that he is another friend from yesteryear. If so, his birthday is tomorrow. If you see him, tell him that Jim says, "Happy Birthday".
Hopefully he doesn't subscribe to your comments
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Thanks for dropping by the neighborhood. You have a nice website as well. I liked your post on creativity.
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Terry, This book stirred me also. Many of the questions Rob Bell asks resonate with me. More importantly I am encouraged by the normalization of the question asking process; the pushing back of the walls that we create to contain "us". I remember the excitement I felt when I first read itabout a year ago. Reading your blog, I re-felt some of those feelings. Thanks.
I love your comment "Maybe our job is to make a difference in their lives by simply listening to their story and affirming their value as people--that's a good place to start." If we could just love people where they are, hear them and affirm their stories, I believe they would feel the love of God. Everyone's story is ultimately a story of God's wooing them. There are as many different stories as there are people who have ever lived and each one has value. I believe that recognizing that value and affirming people is one of the most important and impactful things we can do.
There are many things I don't understand. In fact the more I learn, it seems the less I know. One thing I am sure of. The world is dying from a lack of love and encouragement. So often, we spend all our effort creating masks and holding them up to pretend that we have it together. I find that when I tell stories of how screwed up I am, it breaks down some of the barriers for others. It creates a safe place for them to tell some of their REAL stories. The masks begin to crumble and in our common state, we find and share hope. It truly isn't a matter of "taking Jesus to them". He is there and always was. At best, we are merely tour guides.
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#1
It's interesting that hippies in the summer of love were reading Tolkien. The hippies where I was in Baton Rouge were also reading Tolkien. But Tolkien was no hippy. Furthermore, all three of my kinds read the Trilogy thoroughly and never became hippies. Go figure.
#2
When we were in Oxford a few years ago, we went to the pub where Tolkien and Lewis used to have fellowship and, I suppose, dream up their stories or talk about them or something. The pub is called "The Eagle and the Child." What's funny is that the locals call it "the bird and the baby," because of the wooden sign that is posted on the outside of the place. Anyway, what Tolkien and Lewis and those guys were doing back then in the 30s or whenever it was, was a little like what we are doing now. I suppose they were exchanging ideas old-world style, while we do it 21st-century style.
But those old-world ways are more precious--like we had at your house on Saturday night a week or so ago.
Keep doing what you do, Terry, and soon you'll have that tribe.
C
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feed your head
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What you wrote is so true:
"Each generation must make peace with its' own thoughts and ways of doing things. We are really just painting over a canvas that has had several layers of paint already applied to its' thin surface. Underneath our picture is another and another and another—we can't see them but they still exist and meant something to someone who lived and loved before us."
Thank you for writing that at 4 am instead of going out to wash your car.
C
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Surprisingly enough I am once again learning what it means to rest or go to the cross and am afraid that I am not as proficient in this as I once thought. I guess I was gently surpirsed by the freshness of last night and that longing that presented itself anew (in the midst).
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So when one faces a question without an answer as if it were a floating, belly-up fish (your metaphors are good)...
you can either do nothing and let the questions float til they rot or grab a few and have a good fish fry, eh?
He knows all the answers even before we face the questions.......makes it easy to rest, I think.
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Sorry I was a little out of sorts....not my usual jolly self. I was excited to see Sandi so on fire....it does a body good.
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It was so wonderful to fellowship with you last night. I've been craving that for a while now.
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One of the things I don't like about our culture is this idea that our lives are working towards some place of arrival. That we are expected to, by a certain age, be at a certain place. All the life planning to make sure you get there when YOU decide.
Our arrival will be heaven itself, therefore our lives are defined by the journey - how we react to the various stages and situations we find ourselves in. We can't judge ourselves on where we think we should be based on where others are. Life is not something to be contained or planned, but given freely to others according to God's good, pleasing and perfect will.
I enjoy going swimming with you, Terry.
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Terry
This is the best I've ever read from you. Your prosaic life-observations show me the pilgrim within me; I'm honored to be on this life pilgrimage with you.
I just entered another hill, this morning, on the the road to my horizon. And I don't like it; I had become quite comfortable in a valley for a week or two. I suppose that in the end climbing it will be worth the trouble. Your writing makes it easier for me to believe that. Your encouragement helps us to keep the horizon vision more clearly in mind.
One day, we will once again catch a glimpse of the same horizon. But not yet.
Thanks. Keep up your excellent life's-work.
C
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...it is this movement we feel in our dreams and then make up stories and songs to fit...
This line feels real and insightful and comforting all at once. It unveils truth we need to understand and that makes for intense satisfaction. Nice post, Terry.
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"She loves to pick them and people love to have them on their tables—and that's a good thing for all of us."
In this one statement, Terry, you have stated the essence of the good life, true capitalism, flower power and, verily, life itself. It just doesn't get any better than that.
The October 1997 gathering in Washington was, I do believe... one million, not just one hundred thousand.
The kingdom of God is actually a much bigger movement than "the movement" of the late 60's. Plus...it is eternal, whereas the summer-of-love, flash-in-the-pan thing was merely fleeting and ephemeral. And of course we know what all those hippies were searching for. You yourself have lived it all out to its best conclusion...eternity with the Jesus.
Keep up the good work, gardening, flowering, writing...
Carey
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It was on a freighter called the USS President Roosevelt which also had rooms for about 8 people.
I was a deck hand and cleaned the passenger common area and also made sandwich type snacks for the on duty officers at night.
After feeling a little sea sick for a day or so I got right with it and by the time we hit port in New York I thought I might have found my calling—but you know how it is—getting back home with all my money was number one on my list.
I bought a Harmony Sovereign guitar with my money and slept on the floor in my parents house for a month before my back pack was put away and I returned to school and the rest of my journey.
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Enjoyed hearing some details about you I never caught before. The part I liked best was working your way back to America on a ship. I wish I had done that!
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No...I was just surfing the web the other day following a link that a friend sent me and arrived at a site that had lots of different "religious" stuff on it. I was intrigued and followed a couple links and arrived at a place talking about some aspects of Christianity—the virgin birth being one of them. Of course Paul not mentioning it in his writings was just another proof for them that Jesus was a regular guy.
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Terry, I don't want to be so presumptuous as to think that you were referencing anything I've written, but one statement you made caught my eye.
I am not going to...quit believing that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born just because Paul doesn't reference it in his writings.
I haven't seen anyone else make this comment, but I have said something similar on several occasions. However, I want to make sure that, if you are reacting to something I've said, that I not be unclear.
For me, the issue is not denying the virgin birth. I have, however, on many occasions, stated that I think an emphasis on the virgin birth as a requirement for salvation or a "test of orthodoxy" may be misplaced since none of the apostles (including Paul) reference it in any of their presentations of the gospel message.
Most Christians, when pressed to tell you what they consider to be "essential doctrine", i.e., what is necessary for one to be considered a Christian, would include the virgin birth. I wonder if that is consistent with the teaching of the apostles.
Does that make any sense? To me, this is part of the shift that is taking place in Christianity as evidenced in much of the emerging church (I'm not sure if I'm a part of it or not!!)
There is a desire not to avoid absolute truth, as Rodney said (I think that might be a myth about post-modernism), but rather to determine where we have put too much emphasis on certain things and maybe undersold the importance of others.
Just my rambling thoughts. Not trying to pick any fights with anyone...
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Sorry for the recent absence here... I've been buried in life changes.
I, too am intrigued and disturbed by what's going on in the emerging church. There's some confusion over labels at the moment as well (as always...). Emerging refers to a wider group of churches that are seeking God over how to do church in light of a post-modern culture. All sorts of denominations and groups are represented there. There's a lot of good coming from it.
Then there are the folks in Emergent Village (often shortened to Emergent) that are, in my opinion, abandoning some important theologies (authority of scripture for one).
I've been studying in Scripture lately the idea of unity in diversity. It's amazing how prevalent an idea it is from Genesis to Revelation. I think, as long as we remember that our unity and identity is centered on Christ and His righteousness we will all do just fine. I Cor 13 (the love chapt.) is still the glue that holds us together.
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Look over my shoulder all you want. I look forward to face to face someday, as well!! Yet, don't go round announcing I am writing creeds. Christianity has enough of those already!
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Terry, I too have recently read Wikipedia's definition of the emerging church to get an idea of what the movement is all about. I find that I agree with alot of the practices of the movement but not with all the theology.
When I think of postmodern thought there are a couple of things that define the ideology (in my mind, at least).
1. The constant decontruction and reconstruction of thoughts, beliefs, behaviors and morals.
2. There is no absolute or transcendent truth. In essence, truth is relative to your experience and understanding of what is.
Is the emerging church movement trying to be a postmodern church or a church that reaches out to postmodern (or post-postmodern) thinkers?
If it is trying to be a "postmodern" church, then how can that be? How can you deconstruct/reconstruct the church's thoughts, beliefs, behaviors and morals without the influence of Scripture (trancendent truth)?
I'm not mad at anyone who is in this movement. In fact, I applaud them for reaching out to those that the traditional churches have alienated. I just have questions that I haven't gotten any reasonable answers to (yet).
_____________
ded said:
"His crucifixion is my salvation from sin. His resurrection is renewed life both here on earth and continuing into eternity. His Spirit at Pentecost is life in the midst of death, both from original sin and rampant spirit of the anti-Christ. I don't live by the Scriptures. The Scriptures reveal that I live by the in-dwelling Presence. Because of God's mercy and grace and wisdom and faithfulness, I am equipped to live now. I am prepared to accomplish what He would have me accomplish. I can love Him, love the one across from me for the sake of Him, and know complete rest and fulfillment within me until the day this tent passes and I am released into Him."
Beautifully written. David's creed. I would have called it the "Davidian creed" but somehow that just didn't seem right.
"My goal has become to grow in faith. "
Thank you for this. As a Christian man who is going to turn 34 this year, I find with each passing year that I'm looking to previous generations for inspiration and guidance on how to live in this stage of life so that 1) I won't screw this up and 2) I can be a model for future generations to follow. I hope you don't mind me peeking over your shoulder every now and then to see what you're doing.
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Thanks....I needed that. Faith is what we seem to come back to and we would be lost without it. I guess that is why the enemy of our souls tries his best to confuse that area.
Then there is that area we call understanding—another topic for another day.
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Like you Terry, when I realized that my group was not the "whole" truth that I had been thinking it was, I started to read what others were saying.
Here's my take on the diverse issue of "What is Christianity?" God knows the sheep from the goats.
He will hold me responsible for a life of faith. My goal has become to grow in faith.
The New Testament is my basis. It directly reveals Jesus, and though I reject most bumper sticker theology, the-tag-on-the-front "Jesus is the Answer" is rock solid advice.
His crucifixion is my salvation from sin. His resurrection is renewed life both here on earth and continuing into eternity. His Spirit at Pentecost is life in the midst of death, both from original sin and rampant spirit of the anti-Christ. I don't live by the Scriptures. The Scriptures reveal that I live by the in-dwelling Presence. Because of God's mercy and grace and wisdom and faithfulness, I am equipped to live now. I am prepared to accomplish what He would have me accomplish. I can love Him, love the one across from me for the sake of Him, and know complete rest and fulfillment within me until the day this tent passes and I am released into Him.
This isn't simplistic; it is spiritual reality. It is the "narrow" way. I do not attempt to be right or avoid being wrong. That is complex and broad. Right/wrong theologies are a shifting sand which morph according the author, the culture and/or the times. Jesus is the Tree of Life.
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Rodney, you should try a honey brown ale. It would be a nice intro to the brew arena. Newcastle is probably the most widely enjoyed beer in the world, and is well worth a try. Terry, I will bring the cubes for you, but I prefer my single malt served neat (no ice). Just let me know when and where.
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What's not to like about a Nut Brown Ale. Stay tuned, the ride is about to get even more interesting.
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I traded in my pipe years ago for better smelling breath! But I do miss that sweet smell of pipe tobacco. My alcoholic drink of choice is a wine cooler. I know it's a sissy drink - not for men of valor, but I never could get past the smell of Budweiser and thus have never even tried a beer or ale. Kim likes a nice cool Negro Modelo or Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale. Give me a Bartles & James Strawberry Daiquiri and we'll be friends forever.
Oh yeah, all that spiritual stuff you said was good too.
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Sounds kinda like you and Donald Miller have been hanging out. Thanks for your imput.
During the end of my stay at the church in mention, I felt like the boy in that story about the horse manure. You know the one where someone notices that this boy is up to his shoulders in a big pile of manure and they ask him what he is doing and he replies, "This is such a big pile of manure there must be a horse in here somewhere."
I never found the horse but kept looking for it in the wrong place for much to long.
You bring the ice cubes.
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Terry, the long ride cannot be a "works" ride, we burn out too quickly. The long ride can only be achieved through grace. Grace is only understood and experienced through relationship, not through works. The Message's rendering of Matt 11:28-30 says it as well as anywhere I have found. "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me - watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly."
Oddly enough, when the time came for me to make a church change, God spoke to me during a quality quiet time - a glass of single malt and my pipe on the back deck. But that is a story for another time (and perhaps some more single malt).
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I'm rejoicing, even dancing. I knew you would peddle over this road because God is faithful, and I have always seen you as a seeker. You seek (an exercise of your will) and find (a function of His will). The astounding thing is that He always has more to reveal!
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Your comments (and Melody's) are much appreciated. I almost feel that I had reached a place that I have desired for several years to be—one where God can use my talent in an authentic way—not in some candy coated manifestation of writing prowess. I have truly uncovered a passion that I never thought would ever see the light of day again.
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Melody beat me to the punch. This one resonated with me so loud and clear. I continue to grow in my admiration for your writing, your thinking, your desire to love Jesus more and more. You are a blessing and an encouragement.
Keep running the race, my friend. You are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses -- and fellow runners!
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I guess it boils down to understanding that God accepts us and then accepting ourselves in the process of becoming whatever it is we were created to become. Yes we need to read the bible and pray and look for opportunities to serve but all that should be generated from a heart engaged in a relationship with the creator of the universe and not as a method to get anyone's favor or to gain some points that we can cash in when we get to heaven
WELL PUT...one of your better blogs...
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"though there are no words to describe them, somebody understands."
Yes.
C
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Amen to that...can I come to dinner as well—I love Indian food.
The book is "Searching For God Knows What" by Donald Miller. In it he addresses your very concern and his answer is to get out of the formula that says befriend them in order to lead them to Christ and just love them the way God loves us. Radical, eh. Let God do what God does...we really are their tour guide for a world view that can add much meaning and substance to their lives...that is if we are living it ourselves. I guess that is where it starts and from what you have shared on this blog, I would say that you are already on that ride.
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Great post today Terry. This book sounds like something I need to read at some point.
Maybe our job is to make a difference in their lives by simply listening to their story and affirming their value as people—that's a good place to start. Who knows but that we might find those people that we pass everyday may have something of value to give to us as well.
My daughter Alison is currently enrolled in a karate dojo. One of her classmates parents are from India. I've spoken with the mom a lot during the class. One day I mentioned how much I enjoy Indian food and we talked a while about that. Later on she invited us to come over to their home soon (when her husband comes back to town) to eat with them. I look forward to this, but I know that if I mention it to my Christian friends one of the first things out of their mouth is that we'll be able to "witness" to them (they are Hindu, I think). Honestly my goal isn't to "witness" to them, but rather to get to know them. I hope that God opens a door for us to be able to share with them at some point, but not out of a forced "must do" attitude. For relational Christianity to work, there must first be a relationship.
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A preacher friend of mine once used the analogy that if God is bigger than the earth, then we can't hug God to let him know how much we appreciate Him so that is why he gave us one another to hug and in hugging and loving each other we are loving God. How many roads I have traveled in order to get back to the complete simplicity of that statement.
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It encourages me that your connections went from being alive with God in the moment to developing as more authentic people. I wholeheartedly concur. When Christian theology is task-driven, it means that finished work of the cross and the wonder of the resurrection have been devalued. Conversely, when we "just be" who we are because of the cross and His resurrection, the person in front of us becomes much more important. They become someone we love.
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He merged his omniscient, omnipotent character with Mary's DNA. That's the mystery, and the truth. It must have been a staggering mystery for Joseph. Apparently he had the faith to accept it. So do we.
Thanks.
Carey
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I am not quite sure what the dynamic is that is playing itself out at this point in my life but am coming a little closer to what it is and my daughter's card has helped.
It is kind of like the other day I was talking with a friend and telling him about all the neat stuff I was learning and in the process was actually saying that I hadn't been a very good Christian in a global sense based on what it was I was now seeing we could really be (shouda—coulda—woulda). In other words I was telling him that I still didn't measure up even though I was making progress.
His response to me was that at a point in his life when he needed a friend I had been that to him and that he might not have made it through that period without my support. In a little while he had talked me out of all the stuff that I wasn't or could have been globally into seeing that on a daily, individual basis I had been Christ to him when he needed it.
What I guess I am saying is that in our attempt to understand and free ourselves from the very structure that has beaten us down, we sometimes fall into another structure that is not very accomodating as well. We need new structures that can grow with us as our understanding grows and matures. Christianity is not a rigid club of like minded doctrine oriented people who put up walls of stuff you have to agree with the become a member.
God forbid that we keep perpetuating a system that will hinder us from really getting to know Jesus for all He is.
We need to work on the self-esteem that we have been given in the Beloved and leave all that crap about not being worthy behind in the dump where it can be burned and done away with.
Make time to enjoy your family and create your own traditions and history and you will have done well in my book.
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Good entry Terry. Being in the middle of that time in life that you are now looking back on, it's nice to get some perspective. Maybe I'm not blowing it as much as I sometimes think I am, but could still be doing more or making more of an effort to do special things with our kids. I always thought you two did a very good job as parents (at least judging from the outside looking in).
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That's pretty cool in a mountain-man sort of way. I bet you had a great day as well.
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Blue Like Jazz is an insightful book. I think anybody will benefit from searching for understanding like Miller does. Nothing like a good book and an afternoon to just read.
Happy Father's Day to you! Guess what I was given for today...a log innoculated with Shittake mushroom spores! How cool is that?
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Carey, you're way too much
For online blogs and such
Let's all keep in touch
Somehow
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You could try haiku.
Or a different type of poem.
Who knows what will come?
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It will be what it will be....I am reading a book called "Blue Like Jazz" and having some thing stirred up—so you never know.
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I think your prose is so sublime,
butif you were to write some poetry online,
I would take it as a sign.
So keep on tryin'
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well...no 'big' words...i felt like I fit right in, lol...
I have let the "worries and cares" of life take the edge off of who I am.
that is good statement right there. reminded of the words of Jesus...why do you worry about your life...we just need to be who we are, and not worry about what we cant change.
And friendship...when its all said and done...thats really what matters the most. Friends dont come easy, but they can easily be lost.
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Fairly weak...your blog is right where it is supposed to be because that is where you are. You were a part of my life before blogdom arrived and will be after. I appreciate your ride and what you have to offer to us all.
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Terry wrote:
"We are in process and all we want is to feel like we have finally arrived."
A truer statement has never been uttered. The sad part is I know there have been times that I viewed myself as having arrived (in a particular area or discipline) and others as in process. What a scary thought! Like the church of Laodicea, thinking we are rich when we really are poor, etc...
I like the new look of your blog - very nice! And I really do feel honored that you have linked my blog here. Compared to the others, mine is fairly weak.
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Thanks for more clarification, ded. I hope it didn't seem that I was suggesting that your comment would lead to the extrapolation I proposed. It rather exposes my own struggles with faith and the unknown. Quite frankly, I'm tired of skirting these issues in my mind that want to bring doubt of God and His nature. I want to be able to ask the questions that sometimes trip me up in my own thinking - I'm sure God doesn't mind. I have for too long shied away from the tough questions that unbelievers (and myself, if I was completely honest) have about God that I simply couldn't answer. Or that people would consider me a heretic for my wonderings. I don't feel that way with you guys here, thus I feel safe in posing such questions.
It certainly makes sense what you have written and I would like to ponder it longer before I write anything else. I remember reading a portion of a chapter from a book by Tony Campolo that addressed this same question (salvation in the absence of hearing). It's not a very popular subject, for sure. I grew up in church, got saved at 15 and have been walking with God since I was 17, but here recently it seems I have been re-examining my faith in order to fully understand all that I claim to believe. Thanks for helping me along in my journey guys.
ded, tell your wife the Morris family says hello.
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What parallels we share!! I lived on 6th Street between 1st and 2nd Ave, probably about eight or nine blocks from where you lived. I was behind you a few years.
I have thought about this personality thing much. We are always the person which is the sum of our earthly experience, yet through Christ, we live both beyond, rooted in but free of this person. I love it when God knocks on my heart to say, "Are you going to be the natural David or the supernatural David?"
This was a great post. You have expressed well things that many folks may think little of, but which are influential in all our lives.
We weren't a Father Knows Best family either. I have some contact with siblings but little overall.
I think I'll call my sister this weekend, but the other one is on a cruise to Hawaii. My two brothers? Probably won't call them and can't really say why.
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Rodney,
I do not read you as disagreeing. Even if you did, that's not a bad thing. You raise a troublesome thought that needs consideration. Terry's post is entitled in part "Divine Tension". What I described above creates a tension. As I have aged naturally and in the Father, I have come to understand that faith itself is a place of rest in Him which creates tension between us and the natural world: "Love your enemy", "Turn the other cheek", et al. I do not think, however, that one need extrapolate what I suggest about salvation to the point of, "then all roads lead to God." There are two spirits on earth: the spirit of the anti-christ and the Spirit of Christ. Every form of idolatry is of the anti-christ. Worshipers of idols will be judged as worshipers of idols. That which is written on the heart of men from God will not ring true with such worship. I did not try to say that all who lived by their conscience without a knowledge of Christ would be accepted for doing so. I only wanted to say that the Lord is gracious enough to not condemn someone who manages to live true to Him by only following their conscience in the absence of hearing the Truth preached. Will such a person be without sin. No. What is God to do with a person in this state? Is He obligated to condemn them to eternal separation because of sin, or might we allow that He has the wisdom to judge a level of faith based on conscience that is pleasing to Himself and which would have lead an individual to respond fully to the message of atonement had it been heard?
He said as much about Abraham and Moses and David and these three were not without sin. Ben spoke of this.
Further, individuals living in developed cultures who hear the gospel and reject it or who deny their conscience to love others and cover that falsehood with worship of false deities will be judged accordingly.
In Matthew 5, the Beatitudes, Jesus says, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." In my life, I heard the gospel and understood I could never have a pure heart. If wanted to see God, I must look to Jesus and see God through His righteousness for me. The question is, can one who has never heard the gospel of Jesus preached still hear through his or her conscience the love of God written on the heart and act accordingly in a manner pleasing to God? God knows. We do not. However, I for one see enough of a tension there to not be in a quandary over whether or not God condemns those who have not heard the gospel.
I merely suggest it can be logically thought out, then stated in ways consistent with Scripture in context, and more importantly, felt in our love from God for others. God is bigger than traditional interpretations of
Scripture.
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Thanks ded and Ben for responding. Ded you nailed pretty much everything that I've been pondering, but this thinking leads me to a frightening place. That when the New Ager says that all roads lead to God, they may not be that far off. It sounds as if those who have lived their lives according to the faith of their conscience will be judged according to this, rather than by accepting the sacrifice that Jesus made. This flies in the face of all that I've believed. It means that salvation, for some, can come by works, according to their own moral or religious system, as long as they live in harmony with said system.
Ded, I hope you don't mis-construe my statement as disagreeing with your previous post, because honestly, I do agree with you regarding this issue. It's the "so what" part that I have difficulties with. The extrapolation of that thought is where I start struggling.
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I think Abraham is a good place to start when looking at this question. Jesus wasn't around yet, but it says that he "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". So the issue is much more about faith, than it is about the "Romans Road" or answering an altar call.
I think evangelicalism has added a lot to what it means to "get saved" by removing the element of it being a process and making it more about a singular moment in a meeting. It's not that someone can't be converted after hearing a sermon and responding to an altar call. But, for most people it was a long process of relationships and conviction that brought them to that moment.
We expect people to get saved before we can be friends. We throw around phrases like "don't be unequally yoked" as excuses for insulating ourselves in our Christian communes, only venturing out occasionally to give away free water bottles in the name of Jesus or go door to door to yell at people during supper time.
Jesus did the opposite most of the time. People should be able to experience the Body of Christ before they are a part of it.
I'll stop before I pull out my soapbox...
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Rodney,
Consider the following:
Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
2:15
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
2:16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
When does Christ judge? Most will agree it is the White Throne judgment. If the sheep and the goats are decided by hearing the name of Jesus and responding in this life, why would He need to separate the two at an ending, all-final judgment? Hasn't the secretarial work been done already by profession of faith?
Personally, I see no conflict or problem with recognizing Jesus is the door and no one gets through to the Father except by Him meaning He is the One who says ON JUDGMENT DAY, "Enter in, I knew you," and such is said to those who never heard His name preached but lived according to their conscience written by God on their hearts. These lived by faith.
If the Scripture is true and there will be those who proclaimed Christ but are denied entrance because He says, "Depart from Me, I never knew you," then what surprise or inconsistency is there in saying others who never heard or professed shall enter in because these lived by faith through the conscience?
Are we going to say in either case, "But Christ, You have made a mistake!"
So of what benefit is hearing the gospel preached and responding? The wonder of living in the Kingdom here and now in the midst of the terrible rebellion against God; the experience of His righteousness, peace and joy everyday; being freed from a guilty conscience; and on and on. Those pygmies in Borneo need to hear the gospel preached no doubt, but we need not fear for their "required" condemnation in the absence of that. God is perfect love and perfect justice.
Jesus' words calling Himself the door have no context whatsoever to justify the application of the standard evangelical interpretation of condemnation for not hearing the name preached. Interestingly, such an interpretation does fit nicely into emotional pleas for money to send out missionaries. No cynicism, honestly!! Just a sort of sociological observation. 8^)
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You wrote:
Some of us put the un-resolved matters of life on the shelf and basically leave them behind as we plow into the day. Sometimes we have to build bigger shelves to hold all the stuff that is waiting for us to deal with—and there are those who have to build bigger houses to store all the containers and shelves.
Very well put. I have alot of unanswered spiritual questions that I know many men and women have asked over the years. One of these days I'm going to get around to really digging into those questions. One of them being, "Does God send to hell those who have NEVER HEARD of Jesus and the forgiveness He offers?" The Bible says that His invisible qualities have been known in creation so that men are without excuse, but what does that mean exactly? Does that mean that somehow those who haven't heard of the name of Jesus can experience salvation without going through the Romans 10:9 path? It's a a very post-modernistic question, I know, but it's been weighing on my mind recently. And I know others have asked that question as well. Sounds like a new post on my blog is about to be born.
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"The noise of the city was as constant as the sea."
Ah, yes...both constant, but very, very different in the ears of most people. Perhaps the same for a poet like you.
But for those beachwalkers with ipods in their heads...they must maintain their tether with the sounds of the city. The constant whisper, or roar, of the ocean is too untamed.
C
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I know full well that we can't make a living by hanging out in these modest satisfactions, but what a joy when we can inhale and exhale without impairment—when we can take a deep breath and linger for a moment before everything around us begins to once again demand our attention. Thanks.
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Terry,
The flow is opening up. Your words are a comfort. I enjoy reading you!!
ded
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Don't worry...we'll get there.
Here's something you said that I like very much: "it was that hope that was like an anchor to our souls. We hadn't arrived but knew that one day, if we kept walking, we would be closer than when we started."
And we're still walking. Don't forget the mountaintops when you're in the valleys.
Thanks for sharing. I love your constantly-evolving metaphors.
Carey
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Thank you for sharing these very poignant memories. Norma would be proud of you.
Carey
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As bloggers go...
Our condolences regarding your mom...
sounds like you knew her more than you think. Our thoughts and prayers are with
you, and for you.
melody and cipriano
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My condolences, Terry. We are friends and brothers and that is a joy.
Ben,
Sorry to skip your post yesterday. I only had a little bit of time. I agree that fasting can help one sort out the division between soul and spirit. Whether fasting is used or not, I think it is imperative that Christians seek God and learn this difference. It is vital.
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On my computer desk is a page that has recently been cut out of a magazine—it is an ad for Kleenex.
On one side are words that describe the physical action of using the product: Don't hold Back; Don't keep it IN; blow it loud and blow it hard; etc. Every declarative sentence is bookended by the statement: It's time to LET IT OUT!
On the other side are four pictures of people with little window flaps cut out of their faces which when opened up say: Let It Out.
I was thinking the other day that this may be prophectic: I have tried for the past couple of months to understand and keep stuff in when in reality I may need to let it out. A glass of wine at night helps to keep what I am thinking and feeling under control so to speak and so seems rather reasonable after all. However, this may only be a temporary fix and what really needs to happen is a catharsis, a letting out. Allow the emotions surrounding the thoughts to come flooding out and the clouds that have been covering reality will evaporate.
My mother passed on early this morning after a long time of being ill. I got the call about 1:30 am. I went to work this morning and then took the afternoon off to process—which I did by taking a long bike ride in the 80 degree Boone weather. I don't think I am finished yet and may need some more time to fully understand what is happening in all of this.
Thanks for being a friend.
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That you are seeking the Truth above all has always been evident to me. That such was the meaning of this post was clear to me, as well.
If I were to simply say, "Terry, I know the answer." You and others might think, "Here's another self-absorbed fool." Or, "He's always spouting phrases that would fit best on the front license plate of the car." Yet, cutting to the chase so to speak. because you ask the question about reality, I'll threw out what I have put together.
I can only speak from my limited experience. Yet, let deep call to deep. What do you hear? Take the leap. The only eternal reality not limited by this temporal world is God.
Connect with Him within. Talk to Him and expect Him to teach you. You have no need of men to instruct you. This riles lots of folks but only because it challenges their safe, little boxes; but it is scriptural as per Hebrews. You have the Truth, Terry. Live in Him. It isn't a matter of intellect or training or qualifications or even faithfulness in works toward Him. It is simply faith in Him within you, the hope of glory. If we could explain this in mathematical terms or science terms, which are all systems of thought standing on natural reality, faith would not be necessary. Faith pleases God and it is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Meditate, draw, write, interact with other humans, work, play, do nothing, reflect, repent, initiate and in all of this, know the rest for your soul in His Presence within. From resting in Him, confident in His love, springs all life in the spirit.
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Well said, ded. I think this is part of the brilliance in the spiritual discipline of fasting. I think all of us need occasional reminders of what's real and what's not and sometimes we find that out by denying ourselves the "junk food".
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Good Response!
I remember that old Zen saying about what is the sound of one hand clapping or more recently the one about if a tree falls to the ground in the forest and there is nobody around to hear it fall, does it make a noise.
What I was trying to say, and since I didn't have two weeks to get it all out, was that I am at that point of evaluating it all and want the truth above all.
I have invested my time in much entertainment over the years only to find that in the end, I have nothing but a few memories. Why should I invest in a tv series that will only be taken off the air in two years because it doesn't make enough money for the networks.
In other words, I don't want to go back to riding donkeys around just because it seems more "real" but at the same time don't want to be led blindly around anymore.
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It's charcoal, but there's time to let it get whitehot.
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Terry,
Your post brings many things to mind. Generally, I think the reason we question what is real or not in post-modernity is a function of much cultural "truth". Controlled in-door environments and the flicker of screens are two facets of a physical experience materially there but often conflicting the soul. On another plane, people will violate their souls in order to be a partaker of the surrounding cultural reality. The emphasis on image, seeking the next thrill of entertainment, the expectation that our standard of living aka "style" is part of the meaning of life, believing government should function like a parent are all on the list. Whenever we function for whatever reason to influence a person, a group or institution to accept or accommodate us--inflated credentials for the job interview, falsified income tax filings, giving a tithe with a check to produce proof of our giving, embellishing a story to get a laugh or gain respect, lying to hide our shortcomings, trusting technology will alter our lives significantly for the better, etc.--our souls attempt to feast on an illusion but we go away hungry and desolate. How much sense does it make to think that our physical beauty or youthful strength is a measure of our worth as people? How many Christians dress to gain worth? How will our souls have a deep sense of peace and fulfillment when our conscience knows we achieved and/or maintain our social position through deceit or even just over used credit? How will we know we are loved if we use our personal giftings to gain the affirmations of our spiritual brothers and sisters?
"Schmoozing", "tweaking", "massaging the numbers", the "spin" and so on are not just trendy phrases. These are real words of illusion which have become a mainstay of American collective thought and experience.
Christians are not immune from such falsehoods. We are in the culture. We have souls and our fallen nature of heart too often guide us...well, falsely. Scripture on a mug means what?
Our only hope is the simple truth our Father revealed and which has remained unchanged across the march of time: His in-dwelling presence. Believers have always had available the source of illumination for the mind, the fulfillment of all the longings of the soul, and the strength and compassion of the heart which sets a human free to be fully human. Your journey as mine and all other Christians is unique to our individual lives, but will end in the same place--communion with Him forever. However, the eternal question satisfied does not speak to our lives here.
My simple take: we either become real in the spirit or we founder on the complexities and ultimate falsehoods of the soul. Our journey will either be more fully trusting the reality of the in-dwelling Presence where we will experience righteousness, peace and joy or our souls will gasp for the air of meaning, filled with angst over we what we do not understand, while we starve for love.
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Sounds like a plan to me...is there gas for the grill?
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Our house already has couches, chairs, coffee, food, and no schedule so there is time to be together.
8^)
ded
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Feeling lonely in a crowd has to be one of the worst feelings you can experience. Awful.
One of the things I see happening in our culture right now is a reaction against the busyness and rat race we live in. I think this explains the abundance of coffee shops and bookstores popping up in the middle of these urban centers. People are beginning to long for a place to go where they have permission to slow down, drink some coffee (or a beer), and have a meaningful conversation. Even some churches are bringing couches and overstuffed chairs into their worship spaces to facilitate the same vibe.
I think this is a good thing.
America has put such an emphasis on competing in a global market, that we've lost our way in terms of community and thought life.
The question remains, however, whether or not our ecclesiology can healthily adapt as well.
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I know what you mean about going down the mountain. These mountains are a sheltered little world. Going to Raleigh, Charlotte, Durham, Chapel Hill or some such place is a little like peeking out from under a rock. We must squint. Perhaps that squinting is what prevented you from having what would have undoubtedly been an interesting conversation. Maybe next time you'll act on that impulse, because when you're three hours from home, you have all the excuses in the world to initiate such exchanges, and also all the reasons in the world to terminate those exchanges at any time. All you have to say is: "Well bye for now. It's been interesting, but we gotta go back to Boone now, gotta go back under our rock. But have a nice life...It's really not so bad you know, because Jesus loves you and he died for you. And you're gonna live forever with him if you wanna. So it's not really all about what's on this side of death anyway. Lighten up and Via con Dios. See ya in heaven if not again at Barnes & Noble."
In other matters...Congratulations! to Joseph for having completed studies at NC State. An awesome accomplishment. An congratulations to you and Sandi for having made it possible.
Keep up the good work, and keep on bloggin'
C
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Terry, recently I was chatting online with someone about this very thing... whenever I go back to the US I am struck with how incredible lonely it is. I mean, everyone drives around in their little boxes, goes home to their shut-up little boxes, and if they are in public they talk on their cell phones instead of relating face-to-face with people. You have to pencil in a coffee date with a friend, and only for one hour because then you have to get the kids off to their next activity in the name of "social" time for them... It's a sad sad place for me! In Latin America we have found the joys of unhindered relationship time; Every evening sitting outside on the sidewalk chatting with neighbors and the people strolling by, or walking to the market and taking two hours because you are stopping to talk, people dropping in to chat whenever(which took some getting used to, plus there is a protocol for that, you have to offer drinks and food and drop whatever you are doing!)... so we would go home to the States and people wouldn't even have more than an hour power-lunch for us even though they hadn't seen us in more than a year! Incredibly lonely! It makes me sad for all my friends there and the joys they are missing out on!
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Sorry I missed out on this post - I've been away all week and not had access to a computer (refreshing in a way). I don't have much to say here except that your post reminds me of the words to the Rich Mullins song "Hard to Get".
"I'm reeling from these voices that keep screaming in my ears
All the words of shame and doubt, blame and regret
I can't see how You're leading me unless
You've led me here
Where I'm lost enough to let myself be led"
We've all failed in the past and we will all fail in the days to come - that's just who we are this side of eternity. But I hope that in all my failings I can relate to those last words "where I'm lost enough to let myself be led".
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I have come to the conclusion that it really is about relationships—with the Lord and with one another. A good relationship will endure through times of stretching and testing. The problem in the church I left was that during times of testing, the relationships were not deep enough to stand the pressure. Then when trust is damaged, it is almost impossible to make it up the side of the mountain or anywhere else for that matter. It is a subtle trick of the enemy to get us to slowly drift apart—only to find one day that we can't see each other from one mile marker to the next.
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I am impressed by people who allow themselves to connect so deeply with others that it hurts to disengage.
My circle of profound connections is very tight [my husband, my kids and my dog - no joke.].... [Not that I don't have friends...but I can close the door easily as the seasons of life change.]
I have never been a 'joiner' - and THAT tendency has it's own issues. I am attempting to move in the direction of deeper friendships in the body of Christ.... [And we are quasi[smile]-committed to a home fellowship after 8 years away.]
It is healthy to hurt when you release a long-term commitment to a Church family for whatever reasons.
In an obtuse sort of way- your open expression of pain has been a teacher.
You are a philosopher in body of Christ.. who not only is willing to savor the journey - but is gifted in explaining the topography.
I think I am ready for the long ride....
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Like that horse in the famous Christmas song, we do know the way to carry the sleigh—at times it seems almost too easy and at other points almost impossible to fathom or to muster up.
And I guess that is part of what I am discovering after these many years as a "professing" Christian. Once trust is violated, it does seem to make the road back to that place of being like a child a lot harder to find or believe in—even though we know it is true.
Like forgiveness—we all know the principle and that it is by faith that we exercise it—that it works when applied—and without us even understanding it.
At times I even think that I am ready to move on and trust that God will give me new things to ponder and write about—then something else is peeled back in my soul and I find that I am once again digging through the sand box of my life trying to figure out how the sand found its way there. And then—well you know the rest. Thanks for being a friend.
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A very touching weblong, Terry.
Thank you.
I especially like:
"like those times the Holy Spirit is moving and we are touched by His mercy and kindness which then translates into us feeling better about ourselves and those around us. That spot that when activated can and will inspire us to greater heights."
That's what your writing does for us. And you always seem to gravitate back to the Word.
Keep it up. Thanks
C
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I will and do.
You are right—the way up is down.
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Terry,
It strikes me as I chew the cud in my mind over the discussions here over recent weeks that the only way any of us have any hope of coming out of all this with our heads on straight is to find healing by way of forgiveness. I don't think any of us (myself included) can analyze the situation correctly unless we can remove the lens of wounding that clouds our judgment.
As you write so openly here about your own confusion, regret, and sadness I feel somewhat overwhelmed with the desire to tell you that I forgive you.
I desperately hope that doesn't sound like a haughty or arrogant thing to say. I hesitate to say it for fear that the intentions of my heart will be lost in the blog translation and will come off as an accusation. I'll trust you to give me the benefit of the doubt?
I forgive you, Terry. I was a member of that church and the Cox family. I can't speak for everyone, only myself. I hold no ill will towards you. If any of my offense towards that church and it's leadership has held you in any measure of bondage, know that I hold NOTHING over you!
I don't think you see the power in your humble admission of any personal culpability in what happened. It's the thing that many of those hurt by this long to hear. What you are doing is not only helping you make sense of recent events, but it is setting people free. You are tying up a loose end that has been dangling for some time.
Would you in turn forgive me?
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I guess I just might be flying through a dark cloud which is currently obscuring my vision/hope and if I keep on a direct course, I will soon be on the other side where the sun is shining and the rain has passed.
Thanks for the encouragement—I didn't know that this would get so up close and personal.
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I have expected more of myself and therefore am disapointed that I allowed myself to be abused and end up in this place of deep wounding and disillusionment.
Oh, Terry. I hurt for you. You were doing what you believed to be the right thing, and now God is showing you something better. There need be no condemnation in that.
Please remember that you are not alone. Not only with regard to those of us who have been through the fire as well, but of even greater importance: our High Priest experienced the pain of being wounded in the most extreme ways and is completely able to sympathize with you.
By His stripes you are healed.
Now, please don't misunderstand. I don't "expect [you] to pick [yourself] up and be better by quickly applying some sort of positive thought patterns or a few Bible verses" but I do believe that part of our encouragement of one another in the body of Christ is to remind each other of the truth when one is down and hurt.
I weep with you, brother. But I also long to help you bear your burdens, and in so doing fulfill the law of Christ.
I, and many others like me...
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Thanks. I begin to understand the place from where much art, poetry and music comes from and the frustration I have read about that results in being able to see or feel something yet lack the means or discipline to express it or give it shape. Or still yet feel that I have fallen short or missed the mark completely.
What comes to mind is:
Ecc. 1:18 - Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.
I take it that this means "our" wisdom and knowledge and not the kind we get from God which is:
"...better than jewels; And all desirable things cannot compare with her."
I certainly need more the latter and less of the former.
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His grace is sufficient for thee and the rest of us too...
It is refreshing to know someone who thinks as carefully as you do Terry.
You have unique giftings - so needed in the mile wide - inch deep world we live in.
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I guess part of what the Lord is doing in all of this (or at least what I see in front of my face at the moment) is to bring me to a place of compassionate acceptance and away from a place of perfectionistic expectation.
I have expected more of myself and therefore am disapointed that I allowed myself to be abused and end up in this place of deep wounding and disillusionment.
In all this I am beginning to see that a healthy person can't expect a "depressed" person to pick themselves up and be better by quickly applying some sort of positive thought patterns or a few Bible verses—no matter how sincere.
The ride has been a lot bumpier than I would have thought.
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"Why sheep keep listening to wolves and not the shepherd is almost beyond me at this point.
I am just trying to once again locate the sheep-fold."
Ditto and well said.
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You are so very right. And in trying to figure out the past several years in order to move on, I feel that I have fallen behind. It's subtle—but the feeling of not being able to see around the corner is ever present. Like being in debt and not being able to make enough money to get out of the hole.
I guess that is part human nature as well.
Why sheep keep listening to wolves and not the shepherd is almost beyond me at this point.
I am just trying to once again locate the sheep-fold.
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It is human nature to want a leader. Did not the Israelites demand a king?
And let's face it - YHWH accommodated that predisposition - but not without warning.
The caveat: Where there is selfish ambition [the Absalom type] and jealousy [the Saul type] there will be chaos of every sort.
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Here's a passage from the entry that started this:
"What I have learned from all of this is that there is a big group of people, past and present in my life, who make up the body of Christ as I know it. And that we can organize ourselves to meet the needs of the moment and take care of some of the past's oversights."
So, I look forward to the day we can do this in person instead of online.
How about... at your house, sometime?
Carey
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"I have been more comfortable with the "charismatic" church model which tends to go to the extreme—and maybe I have allowed this model to get further into me than I should have and therein lies the rub and the depth of wounding as well."
I know the feeling! I remember feeling very "let down" by some people that I looked up to too much. It turned out to be a good thing for me... to discover that no system, style or man was able to protect me or keep me safe. My life is in God's hands and He must be my source.
I look back and there are moments I can remember when I had an opportunity to object in a Godly way, and didn't. I knew things were wrong even in my small circle of influence on campus, and often participated in things that I look at now with a measure of disgust. It's the gift and curse of hindsight.
And, like you, I don't look at it as all bad. I had as rich and full a college experience as anyone could ask for. I discovered who I was and made friends that encouraged me to not live small. And folks like Reed T. and Greg M. *demonstrated* to me what real leadership is. Those things are all still with me.
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Ben: I am not trying to throw anything out at this point—I just want to come to some sort of understanding of what I am into and a part of.
I remember Keith Green saying on one of his recordings that this one thing he's learned, that if you'd been burned, the Lord was not the one to blame.
My life has been like this lyric from a Bob Dylan song:
You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.
Nor do I want to go looking for something that is not really there.
I am not against organizations—like I have said before, if there weren't any I would probably create some of my own.
It's kind of like that picture of Moses and the Isrealites at the foot of the mountain as the smoke and lightening show was going on. They were fearful for their lives and told Moses that they would do anything that he told them—just don't make us get any closer and talk with God ourselves, etc.
My 22 years at the church in mention were not all bad. We were part of something bigger than ourselves and found a safe-haven for our family. But the mis-understanding of Godly authority and the subsequent abuse of same left hundreds of people wounded and wondering about this thing called church.
Did I enable some of that abuse and even welcomed it in the name of unity and submission—YES!
Do I want to visit that place again—NO!
I am for variety—if only for the reason that I am different enough to know that for you to understand me will take knowing that God created us all very unique. My experience has been that lip service is given to variety but the reality has been that it is either the leadership way or the highway. It has not been how the leadership can serve the body but how the body can serve the ideals of the leadership. To most, it looks good from the outside but is full of holes on the inside.
I have been more comfortable with the "charismatic" church model which tends to go to the extreme—and maybe I have allowed this model to get further into me than I should have and therein lies the rub and the depth of wounding as well.
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I'm not sure I buy Mander's logic here. He seems to be assigning moral value to objects who's value depends on how humanity uses them. Like his reference to guns. Guns are made for killing. But, his assumption is that all killing is immoral. But that's a HUMAN decision. The morality or immorality of that decision rests on the human making it. The same goes for the television. The moral value of the tv is determined by how it's used, not the other way around. Throwing out the tv won't remove my propensity for laziness and avoidance of reality. I'll just find another way to feed it (like reading blogs...).
This has been my concern as we have discussed church polity here. The *root* cause of the abuses in the church must be brought back to people. Human flesh and blood sinning against each other and against God. Jesus didn't come to "seek and save" our bilaws! He came for people because people are sinful and need redemption.
Do I prefer the house church/simple church model of government? No I don't, but I recognize that as an opinion -- a preference. I don't think churches that follow that methodology are unGodly. I grew up in a house church and I fully appreciate it's value. I feel the same way about elder led churches, cell churches, mega churches, etc. All of them have weaknesses and strengths.
I fear that we can too easily just replace one dogmatic tradition (pastor/elders) with another (no pastor/no elders). And in the end be no better off because we have missed the point. Regardless of your tradition (new or old), a system of government will never be the source of your problem, nor will it be the solution.
The Body of Christ is a large and complex organism. Isn't there room for variety?
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this thought just came to mind...
Taste and see that the Lord is good...
sugar, splenda, sugar, splenda?
The real deal...you just can't substitute it no matter how hard you try...
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are you trying to start something up again? lol...these are the kinds of questions that provoke...personally for me...when we look to the local church as a representation of Christ...we need be careful...we are flawed, Christ is not...we can move forward to be more like the one we seek, but we will never attain the fullness of His perfection...we are fooling ourselves if we look to the local organized church to meet that goal...when that happens, surely the rapture will come...but, hey thats another whole debateable discussion probably shouldnt even get into...
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Thanks for putting that song on there... I love the harmonies, her voice is beautiful and rich. I don't get to hear much worship music in English, so that was a nice change to my morning web-surfing.
About the mourning... I definitely went through that for a long time after leaving Boone. I mean, we lost our best friends through that, and then we examined it and felt like maybe we were never friends after all, since ministry was all we had in common. That hurt! I mourned the loss of mentors, partners in ministry, friends for my kids, even a job. I actually took meds for more than a year to deal with my depression because it affected me so much.
Through time I was able to see things through a completely different perspective. I am thankful for the things God did in me during those years, and I did learn a lot. I have some wonderful memories, and I don't want them to be robbed anymore! I want to remember and rejoice in what God did, not what the enemy did, or even what man did during that time.
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Hey Rodney,
Your testimony thrills me. (Though, since you didn't say, I am wondering if you shared the gospel in your "shorts"? Guess that's Florida thing!)
When people realize they are mature enough to trust Christ and jump into the milieux of this life, they will. It doesn't take a weekly sermon by one man to move folks to act on the love they have in their hearts! In my observations, weekly sermons have the strange effect of deadening the impetus of communion between humans and the in-dwelling spirit...odd as that may sound to some who trust in traditions to mature the faithful.
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Thanks, Terry. Catch your breath. It's a long ride...
It's divinely serendipitous (can you put those two words together?) that I've come across your blog when I have. I've been offered the pastorate at a small church in Kernersville and Heather and I have decided to take it.
As a result, I've been wrestling hard over these very ideas for some time (Godly authority, church models, etc). Having these discussions has sharpened and clarified my thoughts a great deal.
Heather and I have prayed for years now that the Church in Boone would not become fractured and scattered as a result of what's happened, but rather that the relationships that formed over so many years would find a way to survive and grow through the barriers. It would seem that God is answering that prayer. Because in the end, as Heather so faithfully reminds me, it's about hurting people in need of what only God can give.
The High Country has a tremendous need to see authentic Christianity. It's encouraging to see that happening from my perch here in Raleigh.
So... right back at ya with the "Keep up the good work".
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Just wanted to share with you guys something that happened this morning. I'm not sure if anybody is going to read this seeing as how we've kind of put this post "out to pasture". This morning I was sitting by myself, I hadn't had my shower yet, had nothing on but a pair of shorts when the doorbell rang. You guessed it: JWs. When I saw who it was, my very first thought was: "they haven't seen me yet, so I can run to the bedroom and hide and pretend no one is hear." It didn't take me long to realize this was stupid so I went to the door. The two ladies went through their spiel about JWs and the kingdom and whatnot. Then it was my turn, I began sharing about the law and the sacrifice shown in the Old Testament and the sacrifice that Jesus made for us on the cross in the New Testament. I began discussing with them Romans and the whole faith vs. works debate. I was getting ready to bring up the divinity of Jesus (John 1) when they decided to leave.
I must admit, I presented a very weak case for the gospel. I couldn't remember key scripture references (I knew the verses, but I couldn't find them in their Bibles. I wanted to show them in THEIR Bibles). I deem my encounter this morning as a successful failure in that failed miserably (in my mind) in giving a reason for the hope inside. But it was successful because I didn't run from the JWs the way I always have in the past. Part of the reason why has been the discussions we've had here lately. Getting back to the creedal issue, I didn't see the JWs at my door as the "them" in my "us vs. them" battle. I saw them as two ladies who were very much like me, searching for the truth the best they knew how. Therefore, it freed me up. Not to try to convince them they were wrong, per se, but rather to explain my position from a Scriptural reference. To show them, hopefully, that God has made a way plainly in the Scriptures for them if they would only believe and study on their own apart from the traditions they've been indoctrinated with.
I want to thank you Terry for allowing us to have these lively discussions here lately. This is just one example of showing the iron sharpening iron effect that our discussions have brought. I hope that the next time the JWs coming ringing my doorbell that I'm better prepared. But I'm not going to beat myself up for not saying all that I hoped I would say. It's the Spirit of God that must bring revelation to their hearts anyway, not my persuasive arguments.
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Ben: It's been a wild ride these past few days (life and blog-wise) and I am almost out of breath.
Tonight, I left work early and conquered the hill where I fell over on my bike and it felt good—to get past the lump in my stomach and the feeling that I might fall again and get hurt.
I am thankful that we have all been able to say what we needed to and be accepted for who we are in Christ.
It is a little scary to begin to believe again that we can express ourselves and our different views and ideas and still come away as people together on the Emmaus road. Keep up the "good work".
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"Anyway, after many years, what is non-denominational becomes its own denomination and is not really that much different from all the rest. Its a pattern that has repeated itself time after time."
So true! God is always on the move and it can be very hard to keep up. It goes against our nature I think. This is why I find a lot (though not all) of what's happening in the Emerging Church right so encouraging. There's a push for change. There's a necessary tension and debate happening that I think will result in something of a rebirth of the church as a community that can effectively BE the gospel to our culture without mimicking that culture.
For so long we've been self-absorbed, getting fat and happy feeding each other the "good food" that God intends to be served to the lost. I think the church is stirring from its slumber. The next 10 years are going to be very interesting.
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"saber clashing" was never my desire.
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Steve, I must have missed your post earlier. I think we are at the end of this thread's usefulness to the group so I'll respond with brevity.
I completely agree that there is tension in our doctrine that is missed in any creed because of it's simplicity. I actually love the tension in theology (God's sovereignty - man's responsibility, predestination - free will, Jesus as God - Jesus as a man, God's imminence - God's transcendence, etc) because it forces man into a position of humility where he must simply look in awe at the complexities in God.
There is a lot of mystery surrounding Jesus' humanity and divinity (as you highlight by referencing Phil. 2) that is not picked up in something as skeletal as a creed. No argument there.
My original comment regarding orthodoxy (with the creed reference) was not intended to be a fully realized treatise on orthodoxy, but as a opening thought in the discussion. If I had known I would be defending it as such I would never have mentioned the Nicean Creed at all. I don't need to. I just thought it might be a good starting point (and I still think it is).
Are the creeds limited in scope? Yes. Are they complete theological foundations? No. Are they scripture? No. Should they be used as a primary text in the defense of any doctrine? No. Are important to our history? Yes.
If I somehow communicated that I felt differently, consider this your clarification.
Do you really want to start in on debating the importance of the trinity at this point? I don't. At this point the dead horse has been killed several times and we are quickly approaching the line between helpful discussion and saber clashing.
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Ben,
I agree; we agree on very much!!
Rodney,
I agree; this is healthy and better than most conversations I have with folks face to face. What's up with that?
Heather,
I agree; the Bible holds the answer--it tells how to be in communion with the Holy Creator of the Universe.
Steve,
I agree with your carefulness to look at detail in context.
Terry,
I agree; you're doing a great job with the blog!
My National Board tests are Saturday. I will probably not blog until after...though will, of course, read an entry or two during breaks from my studying!
8^)
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Well, I certainly sparked lots of response from my comment. I need to say here that I have so enjoyed stumbling across this blog and getting to see not only the lively debate but the beginning of a healing process that has been a long time in the works. I don't want to in any way be a part of hindering that process. I believe that it is vital for the church to have different perspectives and outlooks. We are not one dimensional people, and God allows for different part of the body to work together to bring about his purpose. I believe we all are on the same page as far as the purpose goes. The questions being raised here are "how?" and "how much of man's input do we really need?" "Doesn't the Bible hold the answers?" Obviously the answer to this is YES. I believe that God also inspires men to interpret his word and teach from his word in areas that bring more clarity to us as Christians. God didn't just speak 200 years ago and then shut up. He is constantly breathing his Word into our lives. My concern in all of this is that we don't lose perspective of God being glorified and people being brought to a saving knowledge of him. It is obvious from the posts after mine that we haven't lost perspective. I am sorry if I caused any confusion. Keep up the debate it is fun to read...and very interesting.
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It is my belief that there are many people who have not moved into all that they were created to be because of the abuse of authority in the local church.
There was a couple I knew who left the church after several years of trying to speak into many of the situations I have alluded to in this blog. She was a very good singer who could inspire you with her voice in a Rita Springer type of way. After two or three years of being gone, the husband communicated to the leadership and told us that in order to move on with his life and walk with Christ (to the fullness) he had to write and repent of his bad during those years and at the same time pointed out some areas that still gave him pause. He really wanted to be reconcilled.
Suffice it to say that after he wrote his letter I called him and apologized for my part in the dynamic that had shaped our lives. In the course of the conversation, he mentioned that his wife hadn't sung in a church since they had left the one we attended together.
It was all that I could do to keep from feeling totally lost and crying the rest of the evening. That the structure and system and yes, the people had failed him to that degree was absolutely devastating to me.
Are there hundreds of people out there on partial hold because of what they have seen and experienced in the local church? It is my personal opioion that there are. Many will say to you when you ask, that they have moved on and no longer have a voice in what has happened to them. Some part of me wants to believe them.
It is my humble opinion that this dynamic is part of what is fueling the lively action these past couple of days.
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Ded, I've said it before. I think we both agree on more than we give ourselves credit for. I think we probably diverge more along the lines of methods than we do on the goals.
I agree that the Church has been quick to stand firm on doctrinal issues (even using them against people) and slow to love. I agree that we have a lot more intellectual ascent than genuine faith in Him. I agree that the American church has largely forgotten the point of all of this: bringing the gospel of Jesus the Christ to a lost and dying world.
This is a lot like when my wife and I have a disagreement. The key is to keep talking until you have both communicated and understood each other. After all, isn't that what we are all in need of? To know and be known?
Terry,
It would seem that God is using this little corner of the blogosphere to not only bring some closure to your episode, but to also keep the Body of Christ in Boone, NC connected with itself.
From my view, you are doing a great job. A supreme example of "iron sharpening iron."
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Heather, I should apologize too if you have been offended by any of my comments. I believe all of us here love and respect each other enough to debate, argue and disagree, and afterwards still love each other enough to not let it affect how we are knit together by the unity of the Spirit. To me this is healthy discussion, something I've not had in many years. Personally, it strengthens my faith to be able to discuss things that others feel as controversial or inconsequential.
I can understand your frustration in this knowing your personal church history. But that's not happening here. This is iron sharpening iron, IMHO.
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Thank you, Heather, for being an advocate for people. It is what happens to people, being denied the life of God within structures which would purpose to exist for their support that is part of my motive here. In this, I think we all agree: people walking with God and having their needs met is among the reasons for seeking and building fellowship. I hesitate to call what we are doing here as arguing. I reget if I have ever sounded argumentative. Please, both you and Ben forgive me if such is the case. Yet, there must be an open forum. It is the only way to reveal the pieces of Truth we each hold, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to knit the whole picture and us all together.
Here is my concern, "doctrinal standards" morphing into a subtle tyranny that perpetuates man-made standards and people missing out on the heart of God living within them as a result.
Here's the conflict I see we are hashing out here: Those authors of the Nicean Creed, were they interested in the people walking with God or working to make sure the people believed what was told them about the Scriptures? Regardless of that point, what power does this creed hold over us today and why?
What frustrates me is that in the world their is an intellectual elite deciding laws which in turn enable them to maintain their power. They are smart enough to accomplish their goals, because intellectual power can be used against the average person. Has this mindset invaded church structure? Sadly, I believe it has.
Of course, all of this is my view. That is all.
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Heather, I'm truly saddened that you think I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing. And it probably doesn't accomplish anything for me to simply say "That's not true". But I assure you, it's not the case.
My heart is absolutely for the unity of the body of Jesus Christ, and the point I was trying to make is that the creed has been used to divide, not unify.
Apparently, you see it the other way. I'm sorry that I have frustrated you. That was never my intent in communicating with your husband the way I did.
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Rodney,
Good to hear from you. I didn't mention it (I said plenty.), but I thought of the none-believer and how we come off sometimes toward them.
Ben,
I so regret if you feel overwhelmed by the response and/or confused by my response. Hmmmmm...not sure how to answer your question. I was trying to spell out specifically my problems with holding up creeds, even the Nicean.
I guess in a nutshell, I don't feel creeds enable an understanding of being one who lives in the spirit. I will check out your blog, haven't had that pleasure yet.
Terry,
I am appreciate you very much hosting this blog and accepting the course of conversations that spring from your comments.
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Personally, I admire all you who have commented on several different levels.
On the most basic level, there is the give and take of discussion and debate. We are all in process and in knowing most of the participants in this comment thread, I woud have to say all of us are looking for a way to live our lives in the best way that reveals the super-naturalness of Christianity. As Misty Edwards sings in one of her IHOP Worship songs..."I don't want to talk about you as if you are not in the room, but want to look right at you, Jesus."
I have experienced first hand the "...my way or the highway" leadership. I have left many, many elders meetings over the past several years crying out in my spirit that we would just agree to agree on something—anything—that would move us forward into our destiny and understanding of Christ's place in our lives.
As I look forward to the next post in this "unfolding" I am reminded of Acts 17:11, which states:
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I will admit that a lot of what has been said is a little above me at this point, but I am exicted about the process in which we can discuss where we are (who we are) and what we believe and still be a part of the same body at the end of the day.
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Steve, I see what you are trying to do here, but I have to admit that your response frustrates me. It seems as if you are entering into this discussion for debate's sake...as if you are enjoying picking it apart piece by piece but are missing the point of the discussion. The fact is that whether or not these men died or not for this particular document, they came together in unity and created a creed that MANY people have used as a reference for Christian faith. That is not to say that Scripture is not a factor, of course it is and I don't think anyone would refute that. I am admitadely emotional about this because it frustrates me to no end that there are PLENTY of hurting people out there and we are arguing over things that cause churches to split...this is not what the body of Christ was meant to be...no matter how you believe it should look! We are missing the point. Church is not about us...it is about those who don't already know Jesus as Savior! The next step after they realize their need for a Savior is that they receive proper teaching (doctrine/theology) so that there are not a bunch of shallow, uneducated Christians running around applying their own doctrine to things. That is dangerous. It is imperitive that Christians have a good foundation on which to live their lives.
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New patterns are emerging—not as fast as I would like but in that I must also take courage. After years of not playing my guitar and singing praise and worship songs as an offering and meditation, I have begun to find my voice again.
Hope springs eternal. That is more than a pattern. We react to a pattern and simply fulfill the continuation of the pattern. We experience a pattern, process, then choose to respond in love and the pattern is broken by the creative power of love moving us on.
You are there in that process, and I love you for seeking the creative power of love in who you are.
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Ben, thank you for the continued dialogue. These discussions serve us all well!
In the meantime: What is my basic problem with the creed? A couple of thoughts:
The creed is used (as evidenced in the way you first used it in answer to the question about orthodoxy) as a way of determining who is "in" and who is "out". But, out of the same mouth, we speak words about how the Bible is our sole authority for faith and practice.
In that regard, there is a double standard because, as I already said, the creed goes further than scripture in its definitions and clarifications.
It functions as an interpretation of scripture, but is then held to the same level as scripture in the way in which it is used as a measuring rod.
There is a very obvious tension in our understanding of the deity of Christ and the humanity of Christ. Yet, the Creed purports to explain that tension away. I have a problem with that. Scripture itself contains these types of tensions, and I think we err if we think we can explain them away.
For example, the creed completely disregards the concept of Jesus "emptying himself" in Philippians 2. The creed merely says that Jesus "descended".
In one sense, in an effort to preserve the deity of Jesus, the creed went too far to that side, and ignored aspects of his incarnation that I believe scripture teaches.
If the creed truly functions as a shortcut to expressing your beliefs, that's fine. But I would continue to argue that scripture does not articulate it in the same way, and that the creed is merely an interpretation of scripture.
You perceived my responses to the creed as a disputation of the doctrines contained within the creed, and therein lies the problem. This thread demonstrates the exact problem that I'm trying to point out.
You said "Nicean Creed" and ded and I said, "Why do we need to use the Nicean Creed as a reference point?" and you immediately thought, "Oh my goodness. These guys are questioning the deity of Jesus." See?
I would again ask you to show me what doctrines (even regarding the deity of Jesus!) that the apostles presented to people and insisted on the adoption of the same.
In that regard, I want to go back to something that you said earlier. You said that the doctrines in the Nicean Creed are absolutely critical (my paraphrase) because without that definition of who Jesus is...well, the exact quote is: Jesus must be "one person: fully God, fully man" for the cross and our subsequent justification to work!
If this is true, what does it mean that Jesus "emptied himself" in Philippians 2? But there is a more important thing to consider. What Jesus did "works" (to use your word) because that is what God said was necessary! It is that in which we put our faith and trust! (2982 chars!)
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I would say we don't need a creed if we use it only to distinguish who is "right" and "wrong" doctrinally. The Scripture itself is more than sufficient to do so. Mormonism, JW, etc... can all be easily shown as false teachings by the standards shown in the Bible and not in a creed. A creed is more of crutch to learning and knowing scripture.
Most non-believers that I know don't understand why Christians feel the need to establish an "us" and "them" mentality towards those that don't believe the same as us. If I'm trying to win the lost, then I don't want to use some creed to convince them whether they are "right" or not. The Holy Spirit will bring the conviction needed for that to happen.
I think the point being made is simply this. We don't need a creed to establish what is clearly defined in Scripture. We don't need a checklist for how to think correctly. Scripture will correct us as necessary. It is entirely possible to be a Christian and not agree with the Creed. It is hard for us to comprehend because we use the creed as the standard, rather than the authencity of the fruit of the Spirit in a person's life. The proof is in the pudding, not in the instructions.
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Wow... a lot to respond to. Not sure where to begin, but let me start with repentance over 2 things:
1) Re-reading my comment I see that there was more "heat" behind it than what was appropriate. I think perhaps I brought into it some frustration I have over larger issues. I should have been more scholarly and less emotional.
2) my memory failed me over the "persecution" point. After looking over my resources again, I see I was in error and concede that issue.
Forgive me! So, as I chew my humble pie I'll try to clarify myself:
What exactly in the Nicean Creed do you guys object to? Or is it the use of a creed at all? I must admit I'm scratching my head a little over what your root objections are. You object to me referring the the creed, but then you don't seem to disagree with the content. My emotional reaction (though admittedly out of turn) was to what I perceived as an argument against the significance of the doctrines held in the Nicean Creed. Now your responses leave me somewhat befuddled.
It looks to me like your objection is the the over-emphasis of doctrine over the living out of that doctrine in a way that is contextualized in our culture through the lives of God's people. I agree with you! Read my blog at www.bencotten.net and you will see that I do. However, I did not think that was the issue you put on the table.
As I see it, a creed is nothing but a concise statement of belief and I do not intend to defend it as more than that. But, if the content is scriptural, should it not be defended? This is my point. I don't need the Nicean Creed to know what I believe. It's simply a concise way of communicating a set of beliefs.
"Christianity is stagnant today, as well. The stagnation floats on the deadening affect of affluence, our pre-occupation with image, the need to see credentials before we will listen to others (a corollary of the image problem), our fascination with critical analysis--call it our willingness to worship our intellects--and the artificial ways we value and devalue people based on performance according to standards and adherence to... doctrines and creeds."
I agree with you! But, aren't you throwing the baby out with the bathwater buy suggesting that we don't need a doctrinal standard? Isn't it possible to hold to a Biblical standard of doctrine while at the same time be a missional, friendly, loving and authentic church?
My relationship with my God is the very thing that fuels my passion for theology! I want to know Him more. It is my awe of Him that motivates me. This is the heart of theology. Have other's missed that point? Sure they have, but must we conclude then that theology and doctrine should be compromised?
As for Martin Luther, he is not my hero. I'm aware of his bigotted ways... I was simply trying to provide an example of the import of doctrine in our history, not defend his character.
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3. In Genesis, the Lord said in effect, "Do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but eat from the Tree of Life." Among His reasons for this must have been knowing limited humans would strive for adherence to Law and miss the holiness of love in the process. Supposedly beyond(not above, mind you)the Law and in the New Covenant, Christians label one thing good and another bad creating an array of reasons to judge and reject others.
4. As Christianity stagnated by the fourth century, Arius's teaching rooted and drew a following because the abundant life of walking in the Spirit and the spiritual knowledge of how to be loving humans through the in-dwelling Christ was lost. People accepted counterfeit teaching because of not knowing first century, spiritual reality. The church responded clarifying a point that needed to be believed about God in this context. This context included many people who did not read for themselves. A simple, easy to memorize creed resulted. Yet, simultaneously a wrong direction continued: a laity/cleric divide to "protect" the truth.
Christianity is stagnant today, as well. The stagnation floats on the deadening affect of affluence, our pre-occupation with image, the need to see credentials before we will listen to others (a corollary of the image problem), our fascination with critical analysis--call it our willingness to worship our intellects--and the artificial ways we value and devalue people based on performance according to standards and adherence to... doctrines and creeds.
Summing up the above and risking sounding emotional, we Christians are naked in love and righteousness because we are so busy judging one another based on income (and we do this every time a fellowship grows through similar socio-economic values), appearances, and having all the correct doctrines. We are returned to choosing between the T. of the K. of G. & E. vs. the Tree of Life. Whether or not one uses the word Trinity because men of the faith 1600 years ago needed to clarify that point of God means little to me now, though I see the importance of it then. I am not holding my opinion to achieve relational reality at the expense of Truth. Rather, I am saying if we will not look past our intellects and walk in deep relational love with others, which only springs from the authentic righteousness of Christ ordering us from the inside out, then we know very little of the spiritual Truth God revealed in the love and sacrifice of the Cross.
Martin Luther? He didn't go far enough with good and continued in evil hate, directing ugly invective against Jews. Sooner or later what he accomplished would have been by another. When he ate from the T of K of G and E even a bit and not eat completely from the Tree of Life ... Well, draw your own conclusions. Whom you lift up as a model, is not a hero. He obeyed God in something. Truth benefitted but was not fulfilled. Such is the Grace of God. Jesus is the hero.
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Ben,
I understand your strong feelings. I know I am the minority opinion here, but call me glutton for punishment while I push just a little further--not to turn opinions necessarily; but to provoke thought about what is accomplished or not, holding to the Creed.
1.Beginning with the least:
Your rhetoric is moving but it is mostly an emotional appeal. Specifically, "losing their sense of legacy and history" and the remaining supportive points of that paragraph, until you finish with "easily toss aside the importance of theology and doctrine ... for 'authentic', 'organic' and 'relational'." These words do more than challenge the likes of me or state your stand for the faith as I am sure you intend. Reading between the lines, your rhetoric draws lines. It suggests, "If you do not adhere to this creed you fail martyrs who died before you; you fail to accept what must be accepted to know Christ; and you are in danger of joining the enemy's side." Emotional appeals fail because people will follow the cause for emotional reasons rather than the Truth. (Space does not allow further comment on this.)
2. I never said the Nicene Creed wasn't meaningful or important in church history. Yet, as Heather articulated, we must move on with God now, in this moment, in this culture. The average Christian today is well versed in expounding on what he or she has been taught to believe in our traditions, but who articulates walking in the Spirit, how it occurs, its practicality, how it is a supernatural, spiritual experience and not an exercise in intellectual apologetics? How many have conquered anxiety, depression, anger, and luke-warmness and moved beyond into powerfully loving the unlovely and the theologically challenged? Other centuries' battles will not win for us. JW's theology is debunked with Scripture, but their lifestyles of self-control and self-denial mirrored in other false teachings such as Mormonism, renowned for their moral lives, make a mockery of a Christianity which lacks the fruits of the spirit and excels in intellectual analyses of doctrines. The impact of over emphasizing doctrines and creeds is that human beings are lured into believing they are ok since they give mental assent to all the correct Scripture interpretation, creeds, and doctrines.
Example: the word "trinity", so strongly stated in the creed is not in the Scripture. The emphasis on that word extraneous to Scripture creates a red herring. Lots of passion and excitement over something the Word does not include. The concept is there, certainly. Why do Christians not know how to illustrate the concept in the Word without a Creedal add-on? Is there a possible connection with that problem to how we in the US appear naked like those in the Church of Laodicia?
I will have to finish in a second post. Sorry, Terry
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Ben, with all due respect, I am not sure where you're getting some of your history. Would you mind to point me to some sources that include the details you have spelled out with regard to the Council of Nicea?
Specifically, some of the areas I'm unaware of are comments such as:
Understand that MANY of these men did so knowing that when they returned home they would be martyred and persecuted for being there.
Martyred and persecuted by whom? They were all protected by the state, under emperor Constantine. Well, the ones who agreed with the council were. The only ones persecuted (excommunicated) were the ones who didn't agree with the council's decision.
They did it because they believed that the Bible was the inspired and infallible Word of God
This statement appears to me to be a bit anachronistic. The canon had not even been settled by any stretch at this point in church history.
Each man signed [the Nicean Creed].
This is not entirely true. There were at least two who did not, and they were excommunicated.
These were men who scoured Scripture, fighting over every word (and sometimes parts of words) because every word and syllable mattered that much.
If this were true, then one would expect to see phrases or words from scripture used in the creed. But this is not the case.
Most Christians don't know where they come from.
This statement is quite true, but not in the sense that you intended it, I suspect. The type of glowing rendition of the purity of the Nicean council that you have spelled out here is precisely my point.
Do you know the reason the council was called? And by whom it was called? And what other decisions were made there at that council? Or the other councils that followed it? The answers are not nearly as beautiful as one would gather from your statements here.
As a result, we so easily toss aside the importance of theology and doctrine in the name of being "authentic", "organic" and "relational".
This is an unfortunate stereotype. And one that I must confess I weary of hearing repeated.
Ded's comments (with which I concur in this thread) are in no way "easily toss[ing] aside" anything of importance. Rather, many of us are asking for a re-examination of how we got where we are (dividing over all kinds of doctrines and traditions) and whether or not this is what Christ intended for his church.
The bottom line is that the Nicean Creed does go beyond scripture. This is unfortunate because it has become a standard to which people are held.
Let me pose a question to you in return: Can you point me to where Paul or Peter or any of the other apostles taught the statements that are in the Nicean Creed, or required them to be held for people to be considered saved?
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Very well put and to the point.
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We need the Nicean Creed (for starters) because it is the very thing that kept us from the heresies of the Jehovah Witness. Let me explain.
The Council of Nicea was called over one primary issue: The Arian Controversy. Arius was teaching that Jesus was created by the Father. He was teaching that Jesus was not eternal and was not of the "same substance" as the Father. In this way, Arius was removing the deity of Christ and therefore eroding the very message of the gospel. Jesus must be "one person: fully God, fully man" for the cross and our subsequent justification to work!
So over 300 bishops of the day came together in Nicea to fight over it and come to a decision. I think this was around 300AD or so. Understand that MANY of these men did so knowing that when they returned home they would be martyred and persecuted for being there.
What were they risking their lives for? Why did they do it?
They did it because they believed that the Bible was the inspired and infallible Word of God and they understood that doctrine is the thing that keeps us on course from generation to generation. Both causes were worth dying for.
The Nicean Creed was the result of these debates. Each man signed it. Arius' teaching survived, however, and later morphed into what we call Jehovah's Witness today. The question over Jesus divinity and His humanity is THE defining difference between Christianity and false religion.
That's why we need the creeds. These are not add ons that stuffy old men pulled out of the air for the sake of their brand of religion. These were men who scoured Scripture, fighting over every word (and sometimes parts of words) because every word and syllable mattered that much.
We are living in a time when so many Christians are losing their sense of legacy and history. Most Christians don't know where they come from. They don't know how the church has miraculously survived persecutions, wars and heresies. Or how close we have come so many times to annihilation either by the sword or by shades of heresy that threatened the bedrock of the gospel. As a result, we so easily toss aside the importance of theology and doctrine in the name of being "authentic", "organic" and "relational".
Here's a question: What if Martin Luther had not studied doctrine and theology and then given his life to the defense of it? Where would we be?
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Thanks for hanging in there. Your acceptance of me for who I am through the years is something I will never take for granted or forget. Long live the "Janitors".
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David: The WESTMINSTER SHORTER CATECHISM begins with this statement and short answer:
1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
To me, creeds are like razor blades. Let me explain. There was a time when I thought that beards were a part of our God-given Christian identity.
I remember running into a Jehovah's Witness downtown who I knew because he was a friend of another Witness who fixed guitars. You could always tell a Jehovah's Witness by the jobs they did and the way they dressed—they were the self-employed window washer/chimney sweep types.
Well, I was feeling a bit adventurous that day and I stopped to talk with him. After a few minutes of conversation, he asked me if I was from that church by the bowling alley. I said that I was and how did he come to that conclusion. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that the guys from that fellowship were the most likely to have beards.
This was during a rather clean shaven time in our collective history.
But he was right. Most of the men in our fellowship at the time had facial hair as if it was a mandate from God. That razors were a modern creation and therefore suspect.
But then I remember a later time thinking that I was the type of person who might have created the razor if I had lived in an earlier time before its invention and subsequent social revolution. It wasn't long after I shaved off my beard of several years and became a normal person again—or so I thought.
The point being that in my spare time—had I lived during the Nicene or Westminster time—I might have written some of that very stuff myself just to pass the time of day.
Do we need it—no! Can it provoke us and inspire us—yes!
And, even though I have not gotten to where I wanted to go with this, I am going to post it anyway cause it is just that kind of evening.
Welcome back.
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Been out-of-town for the week-end.
"orthodoxy" raised a predicatble response..."LOL" Laughter. Whose standard shall we use? Why?
The Nicene Creed is mentioned often. Now here's where I may sound a bit radical: Why do we need the Nicene Creed? It is an add-on created by men. What can it do better than Scripture?
Nothing. It just creates a check-list that is artificial. Loving people is done in the spirit of the living Christ within.
Sarah. Good to hear from you here. Hmmm...Does God speak through appointed men? Is there a communcation
level mandated in Scripture between God and the believer? From the Father to the Son to the Spirit to the appointed leadership, then to the little people? I am not trying to be ornery, here. It is a question that needs asking.
I am glad if it makes you feel safe, but is that safety net necessary?
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You said:
"That the very sensibilities that I was created with were trivialized by people I was caught in a pattern with for so many years is a big factor in my not putting myself "out there" as well, is disturbing to say the least."
This is just life, so we might as well get used to it, and get over it.
Your writing is an inspiration to me.
Thank you.
C
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Your statement is true:
"Though many people have had similar experiences with the organized Church and authority structures therein, mine was and is unique."
That's the beauty of God's kingdom. We are all unique.
And every fellowship is unique.
We serve an awesome God!
C
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This is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I have been pondering over the balance between honoring where we come from and having memories that are good and bad (not throwing the baby out with the bath water) but at the same time moving forward without trying to duplicate the things from the past. I think that we as Christians (and really the human race for that matter) try to find the place we are comfortable and camp out there. When it is time to move we get antsy and say..."Cant we go back to Egypt?" God is challenging us in this day and time to move forward with Him. The question is how do we continuously do that? That is the challenge we as Christians face. Are we going to move with God or are we going to stay where we feel the most comfortable because God was there at one time? Challenging to say the least.
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What a great testimony! Some of my fondest memories of church life are growing up having church in my living room. My Dad started it because the local denominational church he was in shut the doors on him over speaking in tongues.
I remember having communion in my pajamas and seeing other Christians digging into the Word, praying for each other, etc. To this day that is what I think of as the definition of "fellowship".
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Looks like my link got a little confused in my previous comment. Here it is again:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/nicene.html
That's how I would define orthodoxy. There are 100's of traditions, methods, variances underneath that umbrella. The Nicean Creed are essentially the things that we must agree on iin order to call ourselves the church.
Note that it says nothing about most of the things we usually divide over: worship style, government structure, pews or chairs, PowerPoint or hymnals, etc. Nor does it say anything about Eschatology, Spiritual Gifts, Predestination, etc. What would those guys at the Council of Nicea think of us now?
I'm enjoying it too!
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I almost alluded to that scene in the movie as I was trying to explain the feeling of being there on a warm summer's day, with 15 or 20 of your closest friends being led in song as two elders are submerging you in the water.
It was like new testament times to me.
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For some reason, I imagine this scene like in the movie "O Brother, Where art thou?" and I keep hearing Emmy Lou Harris and Alison Krauss singing "I went down to the river to pray, studying about those good old days, and who shall wear the golden crown, Good Lord show me the way..." If you don't know it, find it and listen!
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If orthodoxical basically means "correct teaching", then every church in the world would fall into the catagory of what I term para-orthodoxical fellowships. All churches have their version of what the "correct" way to teach, govern, minister, etc. is. If then this is the case, then we are all somewhat right and all somewhat wrong. We choose which churches to attend based on the level of "rightness" we feel they conduct their business with. What would happen if we decided to choose a church to attend because of our differences, to see if there is something vitally missing in our lives that we've effectively shut the door on in the name of orthodoxy?
Just a thought. I'm enjoying our discussion here. Now when is snack time again?
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Thanks for pointing that out. I guess that was part of the point of the "Whatever Happened To Acts" post—that early Ashe County Church experience was special in so many ways.
Most churches around these parts used inside baptismals and we really felt like those rebellious early Christians gathering by the river and singing songs of redemption. And I guess there again, what made the system and what in turn made the system work—whatever it looked like at the time—was the people.
We were on an "adventure" in Christ which I think was somehow lost in my most recent church experience.
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How appropriate that you were baptized in the "New" River!
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LOL! Please, Mr. Fox! Don't throw me in that brier patch! You couldn't help it could you? Had to open that can of worms?
Ok, I'll bite...
ortho- Greek 'correct' doxa- Greek 'teaching/thought' Typically it's used in contrast to heretical thought. And, yes, the term has been abused by more people than I can count on 10 hands.
In 3000 characters or less?
The">http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/nicene.html">The Nicean Creed
The floor is yours... ;-D
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I have to ask this question:
What does orthodoxy mean?
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-- I actually had like 3200 characters and had to trim! --
You don't sound like a "reactionary" at all! Far from it.
I whole heartily agree that the gospel is the central issue. But there are so many theological ideas on which the gospel hinges (the divinity of Christ, the trinity, attributes of God, original sin, etc.) These are what I meant by "theology" in my earlier comment.
Trust me, I'm ALL ABOUT challenging traditions and modes of thought that we accept simply because "we've always done it that way." In fact, I'm pretty much convinced that the current decline in the church that we are seeing in America is a direct result of a refusal to change on our part.
"My idealism is insufferable to some..."
I suspect that if we had time to sit and talk we would find that I'm at least as idealistic as you!
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Yeah, I agree. I intended those "categories" to be generalizations. There are huge variations within each. Especially around how different churches deal with (or don't) the inherent flaws in their governmental structure.
This why it's so small-minded to say things like "all Baptist churches are stale and political" or "all house churches care about are themselves". I've heard people say all those things at one time or another (and more) and it's a ridiculous notion.
Though, I think it is vitally important that Christians understand what they are a part of so that they can see it's weaknesses and understand it's strengths. Not as a clinical outsider, but as a family member that wants to help strengthen the family.
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This is why I stick to spin class at the Wellness Center!
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In my limited experience, I have noticed one characteristic of church leadership with which I have a problem:
Self-Perpetuating Elder Groups
When the Elder Board only can arbitrarily decide who can join and who has to leave, this is dangerous. I realize that "the Church is not a democracy," however this model leaves too much room for performance praise, and reluctance to speak the truth if it goes against the rest of the elders. If one disagrees, they may be pegged as having a personal problem, missing God, or no longer being in unity with our vision.
Where we are now, the elders are selected to serve for a set period of time, and cannot be removed during that time, unless they are in blatant and repetitive sin. Once confirmed, the church believes that God has chosen this person and will speak through them, even if it may not be what the others want to hear. There is safety in knowing that you can truly speak without fear that someone will twist it and force you out.
Sort of like marriage! There are many times I would have liked to "throw Judd under the bus" only to realize he was right!
Thank you deep-thinkers for indulging my youthful mind. (huh-hmmm) I'm learning a lot here.
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Ben,
God job in 3000 characters or less!
One thought, your home church "weakness"
of "tend to not have clearly established theological standards" is a strength in my eyes. "Theological standards" for some is Christian-speak for traditions which cannot be challenged. There is more to be concerned about in Christianity as practiced today than just the abuse of authority. In my view, the simple gospel of Christ and Him crucified is all the theological standard needed. When folks connect with the in-dwelling presence of Christ, they become the standard. My idealism is insufferable to some, thank you for listening. I may sound like a reactionary, but I am not.
But all that is another several discussions, I am sure. It has been enjoyable to have this exchange. You express yourself very well!
Thank you, Terry, for the opportunity to be posted here.
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ded wrote,
"Oh, the word for "office" connected to deacon is yet a different word in the same section of Scripture and has a menial labor connotation. Interesting. The "office" of a janitor or table server?!! What's up with the way we use the word "office"?"
Kind of like being a "sanitation engineer"!
I think we may approach the Scriptures the same way, to look for the face value of what the words are saying, instead of some tangential interpretation that relies on a "revelation" to be understood. Not that I'm implying that God doesn't reveal scripture to us, but that often times the answers we seek are plainly written in the text if we take the time to investigate it. These are things that I learned recently in a class I took called "Inductive Bible Study", which was offered through Calvary Chapel's Bible College extension. It really transformed the way I approach Scriptures now. I try not to bring any preconcieved notions (which is hard to do when you're reading John 3:16) of interpretation to the Scriptures and just read it to see what it says. To concentrate on the style of writing, the language structure and to pay particular attention to the author's intent, as that should be the main (and some would say only correct - I won't go that far) interpretation. Therefore, it's a bit difficult to understand what Paul may be writing in because we don't know the intricacies of the culture, time or situation (or than what is written). Perhaps the way we understand a passage on say authority or offices is based on the church that we know today and the culture that we live in now.
Ben,
Those are good observations and generalizations, though they may only be most applicable to North American fellowships. The different types of churches certainly appeal to a particular type of personality, and therefore definitely have their place within the body of Christ (which you have clearly recognized). When I was a younger man, church life and Christianity in general was so black and white, but as I get older, the concepts that I had of the "right" way to do things become fuzzy in the light of the type of world we live in - fallen. Knowing it takes many types of churches to reach many types of people. As long as, they believe the basic tenants of the apostolic creed, I generally try not to do too much rock throwing, even when I have serious problems with a particular doctrine (ie, the health and wealth gospel). I just get tired and it hurts too many people.
BTW - I'm not at all trying to infer that you are a rock thrower. In fact, from your writings it would appear quite the opposite.
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Rodney,
The Bible approaches the topic more from the angle of authority: submitting to it, and using it. We don't really see anywhere in scripture where we are told in a real definitive way how churches should be governed organizationally. We certainly get some good hints, but there are no org charts in the back!
Essentially, there are 3 models seen in most evangelical churches (I'll be making some generalities here for clarity):
1)House Church: meet in homes, small gatherings, no pastor (except Jesus). STRENGTHS: abuse of authority is rare, hospitality, very relational, attractive to people who have had negative church experiences, lots of individual attention, strong discipleship. WEAKNESSES: tend to be closed systems that don't emphasize outward focus, tend to not have clearly established theological standards and thus tend to fade out (or leave orthodoxy) after one generation, often are birthed as a reaction against "institutional church" instead of a response to God's leading.
2. Democratic: vision, direction, style, etc decided by vote alone, pastor serves as an influencer of respect but his primary role is preaching and visitation. STRENGTHS: abuse of authority is rare, laity have a feeling of "ownership", no "vessel" is disregarded...everyone has a voice, these churches usually avoid the roller coaster effect of too many drastic changes at once. WEAKNESSES: history shows us that the majority will always gravitate towards mediocrity and compromise, change is very slow, tends towards political maneuvering instead of seeking God's direction, visionary pastors tend to have a hard time.
3. Elder Led: What LWCF was supposed to be, lead pastor presides over a group of "capable and qualified" men, the pastor submits to counsel from the elders but always has "veto power", elders carry governmental authority but do not bear the primary responsibility for vision and direction (that's the lead pastor's deal). STRENGTHS: things get done faster, much less political maneuvering, flexibility to follow God's leading is better, tend to be more missional in approach to the Great Commission. WEAKNESSES: abuse of authority more common, it's easy to allow the life and vision of the church to be dependant on the lead pastor, laity can be ignored.
All of these systems' weaknesses can be overcome with Godly leadership and integrity. Though I have some semi-serious problems with the house church movement, I sincerely believe all of them have an important place in the Body of Christ.
BTW, I'm not saying scripture has NOTHING to say about it. Just trying to offer a more macro view in 3000 characters or less...
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I found your site after finding "The People formerly known as the congregation". I've just spent the last hour or so looking at some of your material.
I just love what Naomi said about the need to discover what the real gospel looks like.
I've been on this journey (in the UK) for more than 50 years. I am aware that tens of thousands of committed Christians are leaving the churches that they may have attended for many years. Although I'm over 70 I find it very exciting. I have never had a leadership position in church although I did give the occasional sermon until about 4 years ago when I asked to be allowed to make it into a dialogue. I wanted to encourage people to think about why they believed and how they could share that belief with others. This was seen as a misplaced idea!
I can really relate to what Heidi has written in "My Journey Away from Organised Religion into the arms of Christ"
You may not feel comfortable with some of my thoughts (but I have had an unusual Christian journey - including observing the Old Testament Feast Days for more than 20 years) but I'd be very happy to share journeys.
Pete
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Rodney,
You summarized much of my position well and thanks for the "college level" clarification. I don't think I see more than you do. I see differently, perhaps. I have been out of the system for a while and had a lot of time to think about if church is not what we have, then what?
In rereading 1 Tim., I think you must be trying to reconcile the things I say with "If any man aspires to the office of..."
OK...it's a given this is my take and as an interpretation, it must hold up to a hermeneutical process where the Scripture supports what I am putting on the words. (Keep in mind Jesus' words like "Call no man, leader, teacher, rabbi for you are all brothers" and "do not lord over one another as the gentiles do". I am not insisting I am right, but obviously I do not support things I believe to be wrong. 8^)
In the Greek, the word office used above is literally "inspector" and comes from a root verb meaning "to watch." In the first century, Robert's Rules of Order did not exist. Possibly people considered the priest's position in the synagogue an office (reference Hebrews 7 usage where the word office is different and is taken from a root word meaning "holy"), but in the New Covenant, we are all to be "priests."
Also, people held secular "office" positions but these were by appointment--no democracy as we know it-- and the common man did not ever fill these positions. (Think who I Cor. 1-2 describes as being believers.)
Bottom line, to think of the word "office" as it used above in terms of an official designated set of responsibilities which are outlined and guided by a policies, procedures, and rule book is to place a modern mindset on the words.
What if we took the word at face value and thought simply, "a man who aspires to watch over and inspect..." What would we expect him to do with his inspections? Things like walk in the spirit, exercise his gifts, reflect the love of God in all judgments, etc.; or make sure the organization runs well and fairly with everyone correctly filling their official positions in the hierarchy and the general laity carefully obeying the same.
It is something to think about.
Oh, the word for "office" connected to deacon is yet a different word in the same section of Scripture and has a menial labor connotation. Interesting. The "office" of a janitor or table server?!! What's up with the way we use the word "office"?
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Life is not so "either-or" as you surmise. It is hilly, with straightaways, but also flat, following a river that empties into the Gulf. Or, if you ride to the other side of our Blue Ridge--following a river that empties into the Great Atlantic.
Here's an honest question: Why do I feel claustrophobic when getting together with the old crowd?
In other news, I'm thoroughly enjoying your blog, by the way. Keep up the good work. I read a newsletter today from a "self-publisher," for "self-publishers." He advises me to get into blogging. But I'm not into it. Too subjective (may be the word you were looking for earlier.)
I prefer to just sort of hang on to your ride, and enjoy it. I like to conserve my creative energies for tending my website and then trying to figure a way to get the novel published.
Hitching a ride on your long ride is a relaxing experience. Thanks.
C
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Ben: I totally agree.
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Terry,
On the closed door, open-door thing:
Maybe if we just follow Matthew 18.
Take it to the one; with the one to a third party; to the elders; to the church.
The "name" issue discussed here is already before the church, both the local body in question and the "church" community of the blog. I agree with Ben, if we avoid slander and attack, expressing what our observations are of public information is not wrong.
The larger issue of authority, (an on-going theme...let me know if you think I am beating a dead horse.) is part of this discussion as well. Following Matthew 18 above, an issue is never known beyond the level it reaches.
Yet as an elder, I witnessed more than that simple process. We took our "responsible oversight" way beyond where it needed to go. We may have acted with full integrity and belief that what we were doing was the "right" thing to do, but who was going to stop us or balance us out if we moved down a wrong path? All of our meetings were behind closed doors and taking things to the church involved putting our "spin" on it. By that I mean, I witnessed us and participated as we carefully scripted how topics would be discussed in public. Protecting the flock or protecting ourselves? This is that flaw issue raised earlier. No system can necessarily keep men in authority from taking their authority too far or handling themselves with too much seriousness. In fact, because it is about "the things of God", men take their actions very seriously. Which is not doubt called for, but what keeps men from a skewed perspective about themselves in the heat of the things? Character? What happens when having "character" demands that they do the "right" thing as they see it? What Ben described as watching men he thought honorable act in dishonorable ways is probably viewed very differently from their side of the coin.
Perhaps, "Upholding God's ways in the face of every obstacle and attack."
When I saw myself and family ostracized simply because I disagreed with how LWCF approached church government, I had to come to grips with the fact that those who worked first to get me to change my mind, then to contain my "heresy" and protect the flock, believed whole-heartedly in their actions as necessary and right before God.
I suggest the answer is not another system or creating policies to safeguard against abuse in our present systems.
Rather, free, open discussion at each level of Matthew 18...including the final step of take it to the church.
Elders should not use the public meeting to issue decrees. Nothing in scripture mandates such. A public forum is the final step in getting to the heart of the matter. This isn't a system, it is family life. If the family of believers is to find the relationships of family, it must practice the support, respect, give and take of family. The Holy Spirit will guide and comfort through it all.
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Terry wrote: "Rodney: You are quite a trip and getting pretty good with your sentence structure as well."
Just like a good 3rd grader should!
ded,
I should probably briefly summarize what I believe to be your statements regarding church structure. I think that you have been saying that the way we do church today is not at all the way God intended or at least not the way that the apostles necessarily instructed them to be. Churches shouldn't be centered on a one man approach to teaching or being the voice of God to the people. That church history, good and bad, has evolved over the centuries to the institutions that we call church today. It is my understanding that you believe a more appropriate way of doing church is more of a family-based, community approach where authority isn't the power to control people or information, but rather the "greater capacity to exercise love: not mushy sentimentality, but the power to walk in patience, kindness, and without envy toward others." Remember, it's been a long time since I've seen or spoken to you and things may have changed since then. If they have or if I've mis-stated your ideas, please forgive me.
If then, church should be done in less of an organized, institutional manner than how does the role of an overseer or deacon (as seen in 1 Tim. 3, Phillipians 1:1, or 1 Peter 5:2 ) come into play? I'm having a hard time understanding how that type of position (or calling to be more appropriate) is applicable in a home-based fellowship, where positional titles are not needed. Maybe they are needed, but because I approach reading the Scriptures based on what I know of the church today (and the offices we've established and the authority that accompanies them), and not the church of the first century, it's difficult for me to understand how they are needed. For example, when I read the word deacon, I automatically think of the role of a deacon in, say, a Baptist church. Ågain, we read Scriptures on church structure and try to make them fit the model we have of church today and not necessarily the model the early church had.
I really am interested in your comments. I'm not sure that what I've said was your intention, but if it is, please answer. I am in no way refuting your position, rather trying to understand it.
And when I say it's like a 3rd grader trying to participate in a college-level debate, the implication is on my inability to understand the deeper things, not the manner in which you teach/speak.
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Well, its nice to see so much 'input' and 'thoughts' on terry's blog...its been pretty active here the last couple of weeks...hmmm...this could be a signpost for all intended to be able to see a little clearer...in the end of it, we really just want to be more like Jesus. In the great diversity amoungst all of us, it will be interesting to see our diversities melded as though One, the great challenge we are all faced with daily, and loving one another in
the process of it all...yup, quite the challenge. May we ride on with great victories...
melody
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Rodney,
College-level debate? Do I really sound that way?
I am sorry. I am failing everyone if I am coming across in an unclear manner.
I guess I would need you to name how you see my statements at odds with Paul in 1st Timothy before I attempted a response. Honestly, though, I draw most of what I am saying by thinking about Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I do not lessen the epistles' authority in doing so. Yet, I think we too often look at an imagined 1st century church and place upon the bare bones evidence we have a much stricter interpretation than was intended.
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I think in this instance it's the heart and tone of what is said that makes the difference between appropriate openness and inappropriate gossip/slander.
Whether we use a name or a pronoun in place of the name, the measure of sin/not sin is the same. I think you made the right call (of course, I was the one who made the comment so maybe I'm biased...).
Also, there's been a big cultural change that has come as a result of the bogging "revolution". There is a pretty clear delineation between what the blogger says in his post, and what commenters say in response. It's understood that you are giving the commenting community a little leash to facilitate discussion.
As long as we all stay clear of slander, gossip, etc we are in the safe confines of scriptural living.
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Rodney: You are quite a trip and getting pretty good with your sentence structure as well. LOL I hope ded reads this before I have dinner with him this evening.
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For more satire of the news, check out:
http://www.jibjab.com/originals/what_we_call_the_news
I've worked (and still do) with all of the major news networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, FoxNews...) and I've helped cover some of Florida's more controversial stories (Terry Schaivo, Anna Nicole Smith, Carlie Brucia, etc...). I really don't like it, but for now it's paying the bills. I look forward to the day when I no longer have to do news. It really has become mostly tabloid stories, but as long as people watch it, they'll continue to cover it.
I'm glad you guys recognized the "secrecy" issues. I had forgotten (blocked) that part of our time there, but when you mentioned, the light went on in my head. Some things do need the privacy of elder's meetings, but others need the council of the body. Of course, this all assumes we're staying in a human structured (fundamentally flawed) system of church government. However, I don't necessarily believe (I think) that putting oneself in the position of submitting to a church system is wrong or, not beneficial. But, the person in submission must keep vigilant watch on the corruption of the power given to it's leaders.
I still don't know how to reconcile some of ded's comments on church structure to what I find in Paul's writings (in 1 Tim. for example). I'm not disagreeing with him, per se, rather I think that perhaps he understands a dynamic that I don't. I've always enjoyed ded's teachings, though they are hard for my limited scope to sometimes comprehend (kind of like a 3rd grader trying to participate in a college-level debate). But I've trusted him because I see the fruit of the Spirit in his life and therefore there must be some value in what he says, even if, on the surface, it appears to fly in the face of modern thinking.
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Thanks for that! I know Dad has mentioned several times that you guys have been able to talk things through, and that is very important to him. I think we all fell prey to the same thing in various stages during the process.
Dad has said before that he wishes that he had stood up and said something right when he began feeling uncomfortable, I felt uncomfortable as soon as I heard of the intentions of the leadership and I should have said something (it may not have done any good, but I could have made it clear where I stood). We all fell prey to the same thing, but we all just had our different times of getting out. I don't hold it against you.
Thank you for helping to bring some more closure to this chapter in my life. God has already been so faithful to touch the places of hurt in me and in many of my family members. I know that God has a redemptive purpose in this whole thing for each person involved....I just hope we get to be around to see it!
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Heather, I know it took a lot to say what you did. I feel privledged to have been a part of the celebration at Chetola because I know that, despite what happened, your dad and I kept in contact and tried to keep the lines of communication open the past several years. I will say this however: I saw many people leave over the years and am highly repentive of the collective attitude I fell prey to that more or less left things alone and did not stand up at some point publicly and say "I am mad as hell and am not going to take it anymore" in relation to what we did with people who for whatever reason "felt" to leave LWCF. That we allowed them to become "persona non grata" is something I am not proud of to this day. It's a little early for Bastille Day but we will take what we can get and keep looking for more. Thanks
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Wow! I can tell you that when I saw this entry I all but cried. I really have tried to stay out of this as it hits so close to home.
I believe what you are getting at, Terry, in the "underlying purpose", is that the pieces of broken relationships and hurt caused by these past years are finally beginning to be realized and mended. I think that people reconnecting and blogs like this are allowing the healing process to begin.
The thing that LWCF had that was so priceless was deep relationships, the kind you find in family. It is so sad to me that the enemy used the thing that had been a strength in the church and attacked it.
To me, that was what was so painful in the process...that the relationships we had built over the 20+ years of being there appeared to be in shambles and that people were left wounded in the dust!
I think that the "systems" you talk about in this and previous blogs really do need to be re-examined. I believe that it has been too top-heavy for far too long. I know that Dad says the same thing and if he had to do it again, he would do some things differently. I just believe that as much as the systems need to be re-examined, the relationships that we build and maintain should rise above the systems and should be more important then any system we have. Because when the world looks at the broken relationships and hurt that has come out of this, it is hard for them to want a part of it and that is not what any of us want!
Terry, thank you for being sensitive and for allowing us to "talk" this out. I really do believe that God has begun a work of healing. My dad told me the other day that May 6th was the anniv. of it being finalized he was leaving, and I think it is somewhat significant that we are coming together so close to that date to begin to talk through this stuff.
Sorry to be long-winded...I said I wasn't going to get involved
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Rodney: Ben and Connie "were" a big part of the reason Sandi and I agreed to attend what was then Watauga Christian Center. We began our adventure there in early '85 driving 22 miles each way on Friday evenings to be a part of their home group. We got home late but always felt like we had advanced in our walk with the Lord. It wasn't until later we began to come to "church" on Sunday, then Wendesday evening and more. I have asked this very question of Ben: When did things get off track and how did we go so long before we noticed. Neither of us can pin point a moment but looking back, know that this and so much more "really" happened. Lots of good things and good relationships happened in our many years there. God is in process of restoring many of these "connections" so we must continue to look to the future with an awareness of the past and be open to his leading and direction/correction.
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Where does the fault lie in our failure to live honorably together as God's children, our sick hearts or the systems we create?
The sick heart, of course, reaches back to Creation and the fall. It would have to be the primary culprit. Yet, the functioning of the system and its power over individuals needs to be examined. It is a truth that any system will be flawed because flawed people populate it. But what about the power of the systems to subjugate people?
This presents a conundrum. We are still instructed to be involved in fellowship. Is a flawed system acceptable in order to achieve submission to the mandate?
If we subscribe to "It doesn't matter which system," do we not automatically accept the flaws that the system inherently has and the consequences of that? If these systemic flaws are indeed a function of men's fallen hearts, did God ordain us to live under the authority of fallenness? It is an inevitable conclusion, if we allow flawed systems to rule over people. Tangent: I accept the free-will reality as an unalterable part of life and respect anyone's decision to participate in any group regardless of the representative system. This is not about abrogating anyone's choice.
Going back to the original thread. Did God intend we enter into something flawed? I contend He did not. In fact, Jesus warned us not to follow the example of the gentiles and lord it over one another. In fact, our religious systems do just that. In so doing, we subject the flock to the flaws of human hearts, and inevitably, relationships suffer as the system forms and perpetuates itself.
I agree with everything Ben has said. Yet, I ask do we not need to look deeply at what we are talking about? Human beings being what they are--heart, mind and soul--should we continue to look to gentile-oriented systems, which invite the impact of the fallen human heart to lift into positions of authority, as the means of serving our need for fellowship within the family of the Father?
Would it not be more prudent, practical, and purposeful to move into the spiritual dwelling the Father designs?
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Since Ben Cox's name is already out there, perhaps I could add just a bit here.
Kim and I left LWCF in early 2000. It was a bit after there was a big split in the worship leaders. We felt very devastated by it, because we were torn between both leaders. They were men that we loved, but our hurt seemed too deep. We felt we needed a change. We called Ben and asked him to come to our house for lunch so that we could discuss/announce our plans to him that we were leaving the church. While I don't remember the exact words that were spoken, I do remember his attitude. He appeared before us as a broken man, someone who was hurt that we were leaving. He obviously cared and loved us very much. I can still feel the pain of that day, bittersweet though it was. It felt like a great release for us, but it hurt me to know that Ben was hurt by our leaving.
I'll never forget one men's meeting in particular. A couple of years earlier, Ben spoke/confessed something to us in a men's meeting that was very difficult for him to speak of. But as he exposed his soul to us that night, it was one of the most important examples a pastor has ever shown me - that pastors are just as human and susceptible as we are. When we put leaders on pedestals thinking they should do no wrong, it sets us all up for disappointment at the least, and betrayal at the worst (if we let it). We will all do wrong at some point, even in the face of the obvious right that we should do. It's the sin nature that will dog us until the day we die. In showing me his failures, Ben let me know that night that godliness has so little to do with never screwing up and everything to do with our response to God when we do (and we will).
I ran into Ben on the golf course unexpectedly a couple of years ago when I was in Boone for a business trip. We exchanged a passionate hug, as a father would his son (at least that's how it felt to me). He recounted a few things that had happened to him over the last few years with the church, but he didn't do it in a condemning way. There was still some hurt there, but there was grace more abundant. I hope and pray that Ben and Connie know that they are loved by so many of us. That we've hurt with them over the years. I hope that if our leaving the church felt like betrayal to him, that he would know that it wasn't meant as such and that I hold him in high (but not unrealistic) respect.
Thanks for letting me share this here on your blog, Terry.
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Your last words in this blog are worthy of repetition:
"to heal the body that many of us felt was fractured and almost beyond repair. If this blog is a part of that process, that's really as creative as it gets."
Yes!
C
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Terry, thanks for posting that comment. I knew you would have to wrestle over whether or not to approve it. I run a blog myself, so I know the apprehension well.
When I first typed the comment, I left out names. But, on re-reading it I realized that it was a bit like ignoring a pink elephant in the room. Everyone knows it's there and ignoring it will only let it grow. So, I decided to rewrite it. I hope I was careful enough to not come across as a stone thrower, because that isn't me at all.
I believe that part of healing and reconciliation is being willing to let your wounds seep a little. Everyone was wounded in different ways by this whole situation. Maybe this blog will be enough to give Boone, NC the freedom to bleed again.
Thanks for letting things be a little messy!
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Thanks for the linkage - I've added you as a regular read in Google Reader.
(Click on Bill's underlined name and you will be directed to his blog - Terry)
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It's not really off topic—just a part of the whole thing. I guess it really boils down to Romans 8:28, And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Many times we have to wait to see the results.
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Yeah, I guess over time the system morphs into a reflection of it's members. (like dogs and their owners?)
It stops being something that serves the church, but the church begins to serve the system. That is a dangerous place to be.
The Church at large is certainly wrestling over these issues these days. How we do church and how the Church has become a weakened and irrelevant entity in our culture. But that's off topic...
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Terry,
We hope that we can all break bread together once again as well! Haven't been to Boone in years and years, and definitely have missed the deep fellowship we experienced there. That's the ironic thing, I think! That in the midst of a messy situation, we all experienced FAMILY there. Then the enemy robbed us of our brothers and sisters, which hurt us so so deeply, more deeply than leaving our "positions" in the church. So, I pray that the reconciliation (both definitions) happens on many fronts, so that the world will know we are Christians by our love for one another.
Bendiciones,
jan
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Man...that's some heavy stuff. And I guess raises as many questions as it begins to understand.
I guess the reason I keep coming back to system is that everything revolved around serving it most of the time. Even relationships were molded by the system which, as you mentioned is only as deep as the integrity of the members. But you are right in that sense.
When it was percieved that you were not in agreement with perpetuating someone else's goals, you became a thorn and were marked from that point on. It was very hard to ever get on the other side of this.
I remember a time when my wife made an observation at an elders meeting about a committee that we were supposed to have some input in and had seen some decisions made without us being involved. The persons in question were very upset with us and in a lunch meeting later that week to discuss the matter, whether we were right or wrong in our observation was never brought up. What was at issue was that we had "exposed" this person in public (we were under the impression that elders meetings were safe, family places) and that we needed to repent for that.
It wasn't until a year later that I learned that our participation in that committee was suspect because we "had an agenda" and the committee never met after our public comments about it. And here I thought that our uniqueness was supposed to be beneficial.
So to me, whether relationship or system, it all seems tied in together somehow.
Thanks for the food for thought.
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It's all been very surreal for me and Heather. We left Boone for Raleigh just before everything really blew up. But, we both saw it brewing for some time before. Being in Raleigh, and being a part of the family at the same time, was like watching the Katrina disaster on TV. I was miles away, but also inextricably connected.
I remember coming up for the "final" meeting just to lend some support to the family. I bet many of us remember that meeting! It was not the church I had known. My good memories of my time there are still good. I still love LWCF and think about it often.
So, my perspective is probably a little more removed than many of yours.
I just wonder if it isn't too easy to just point at the system of church government and call that the problem. Don't get me wrong (really). I believe we should learn all we can from this. But, any system you choose (home church movement, Emerging, modern, post modern, committee led, top down, Elder led, etc.) is only as good as the individuals that make it up. The integrity of the group is dependent on the integrity of its members. The breakdown at LWCF was in consistent unwillingness to confront sin in a loving manner, unwillingness to forgive, unwillingness to listen to the flock bleating at the approaching wolf, a myopic view of spirituality, spiritual pride, selfish ambition, etc.
Sure, the system of authority there was flawed. I can agree with that. Really, I do. But, for me, the weight of the lessons to be learned about integrity, friendship, loyalty, forgiveness, and courage far outweigh the lessons to be learned about how churches are governed.
It wasn't the system that robbed you. It was the sin of those you trusted.
I hope that makes sense and doesn't come on too strong. I haven't had my coffee yet and Heather isn't here to say, "Honey, that's a bit much."
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Ben: Welcome to the neighborhood. I am glad that you have added some additional texture to this thread. Before (and if) I comment, I am going to have to think for a while about what to say as I could write a book about it. You have opened up a whole new dimension and that will take a little processing time on my part. Great to here from you.
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Great to come across your blog!
Watching the Cox's get ripped to pieces by those who were supposed to protect them was a life-altering experience for me. I saw the church behaving badly. Very badly. I saw men that I had so respected, turn so quickly into men without honor. I saw others that I had never noticed before, rise to the occasion. My Dad always used to say to me growing up that you never know what a man of God will do until he is tested. I didn't really understand that until then.
In those days, I saw some men who had always appeared strong in God and full of character, crumble in confusion, cowardice or selfish ambition. I also saw my father in law, Ben Cox, respond to deep betrayal with honor and humility. Any time someone in the family would get angry and say something negative about anyone involved, he would make everyone stop and pray blessing on the church and anyone that had pushed a knife in their back. What a lesson!
God taught me many lessons in those days about what a man of God should be. I learned what a pastor should be. I learned what elders should be. I learned about Godly loyalty, and unGodly loyalty. I learned that part of being a leader is sometimes getting the kiss of Judas on your cheek (I can remember one of the primary, and most able to help, betrayers coming over to the hurting family and giving one of the daughters a kiss on the cheek and a "God bless you". He walked away and she just started crying. Gives me chills to this day.)
I'm about to take on the role of pastor myself, and I often thank God for the lessons I learned from my fallen heroes in that church.
I've watched as God has taken each one in that family and ministered healing to them at their own pace. Each one is discovering God outside the context of the "system" that you talk about.
Maybe what we all need to see is that God is sovereign, even when men fail us. He knows His Bride can be a rip-roaring mess, yet He still manages to accomplish His will in it all.
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For the record, Jan and Greg are church friends from way back who are now (and have been for some time) in the mission field. They can be found at: http://suppliants.blogs.com
Jan: Thanks for the encouragement. I have come to think and am further beginning to understand that God gives us authority to help each other find our way towards a more productive Christian life and that that happens in the homes more than in the buildings we meet in. When we fellowshipped together, there was really a focus, although a sometimes legalistic one, on home groups and having people over for dinner. Sandi and I still really find a lot of life in having people in for dinner and or desert and taking time to pray before they leave.
Maybe some day, we will get to break bread together again.
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Terry,
Looking at the residue in our own lives from being abused by the same authorities, I can see that it caused us to be really afraid to take authority when it was given to us. I shied away from any responsibilities because I didn't understand what authority really was.
Now that I live in another country, I see that their definition of authority is drastically different than ours. Which one is correct? I'm not really sure. I'm not even sure if we shouldn't say it would vary from culture to culture. When I read the letter from ded I thought that you would never even find a church like that here and you definitely wouldn't find a pastor that would leave his pulpit or congregation for two weeks so they could find their own way... that's not the way they think! I'm not saying that they aren't intelligent or anything, it's just their mindset. We are talking a completely different foundational mindset!
All that said, I enjoyed your article and I am enjoying reading your blog. I understand your pain, I understand your thoughts about the old days, and I rejoice that God is bringing you through it and showing you another side of Him.
Be blessed,
Jan
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I wholeheartedly agree with your observation, that "authority is not necessarily synonymous with control".
This is a common assumption when one thinks "like a gentile" regarding the necessity for flow charts. Who's in charge?
What if we understood authority as the greater capacity to exercise love: not mushy sentimentality, but the power to walk in patience, kindness, and without envy toward others? What if that were the authority we sought and recognized?
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Maybe it's the message and not the messenger that stirs you so.
ded
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"...a longing for a supernatural experience with the Holy Spirit."
This is the difference between the charismatic church and the other 98% of the church: always seeking a new experience.
Other streams of "the church," however, have their emphases on...evangelism, or fellowship, or working toward peace, works of mercy, working toward justice, priestly ceremony...or other biblically based activities.
The conclusion that I have come to is: they are all legitimate in the eyes of God, and so he allows a "house," or denomination, for each inclination ("In my house are many mansions")as long as His people acknowledge Him as the risen Lord, the One who created Life, conquered death, reconciled us to Himself, lives forever, and in whom we live forever.
C
C
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Carey, how well I remember that time in the hallway at church when you told me, in no uncertain terms, that who and what we were (are) would never be received from a pulpit perspective—as if that were what we really wanted—time in the pulpit.
So we spent our time in fellowship and making music at the prison every Thursday evening.
Your motives were always, I think, much cleaner than mine—I probably thought that acceptance "was" being invited to share the pulpit.
What I now realize is that we were both seeking acceptance from people who were, in turn, also seeking acceptance from who knows who. The system they were a part of perhaps?
My time on this planet has been enhanced by knowing you and being known and accepted by you—woundings and all.
That is part of our legacy.
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Terry:
That is the most interesting, profound blog that has come from your fingertips. Thank you. It is food for thought ow which I will chew for quite a while.
And authority could have something to do with the "two-edged sword that we see in Rev. 1:16. It cuts both ways, toward those persons in authority, and also toward those under authority.
As far as "church" goes, don't forget that we've only seen one part of the elephant, so our power to form a concept of what "church" is limited by our respective experiences. Some folks, handling the elephant's ear, perceive it as a blanket. Others, who happen upon the leg, think of it as a tree trunk.
Thanks for your very thoughtful blog.
C
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DED: I am glad that in our struggle to understand, we have reached a point where we are bearing one another's burdens. Also that what could have been the end, is really just the beginning. There are very few people who can challenge me the way you do and get me to reach deep for the passion that once was so clear in my mind.
Like "apples of gold in settings of silver".
TH
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Carey,
The grace to accept people exactly where they are is inherent in your statement. Surely one aspect of gaining maturity in Christ is to walk in unconditional love for all, professors of Christ and those who do not speak such, as well.
So in day to day interaction with Christians in particular, not judging another's beliefs is an important and life-giving attribute for us to learn and practice.
Yet, in a larger scheme of analysis concerning what will enable the most folks to reach the highest level of maturity, the issue of the nature and function of authority among brethren will not go away.
For me, the bottom line is that folks who believe they must have authority on earth in the form of another human are free to choose such an approach. However, I would fail loving the Father, if I did not voice clearly that the internal authority of the living, in-dwelling Spirit of Jesus is sufficient for everyone and anyone.
Rodney, it's been great to hear from you on the blog here.
Terry, thanks for your friendship and the grace you extend to me!
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It has certainly been therapeutic to me as well although at the time of digging this well, I didn't know that it would go so deep.
And I think that is the point that DED is making as well—when things are structured the way many services are, they invite us to shut ourselves off to listening to God on our own, day by day.
It's almost like that story of the mountain shooting off flames and the people telling Moses that they were afraid to get close but would do whatever he told them to. In other words, you listen to God for us and we will listen to you. Moses may have had the people's best interests at heart, but power does tend to corrupt motives.
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One of the things that bothers me the most (now) is that many charismatic churches cheapen the power of Scripture. There seems to be a greater emphasis placed on the "experience" of worship, rather than the power of the Word to change people's lives. In Luke 24, when Jesus appeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, he started with Moses and the Prophets and explained what was said in Scripture concerning Him. The disciples didn't recognize Him at that time. Later on, when Jesus again disappeared, the disciples began to ask "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" Some of the greatest experiences of my Christian life have been when God opens the Scripture to me in my own heart. I've seen firsthand what the power of the Word can do in the hearts of believers. To me, there is no greater experience with God than through his Word. I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, but it's what bothers me about my time at LWCF. Is it my own fault? Partially - I neglected the Word myself. But part of it is the dynamic of that type of church. One of my favorite teachers, Allistair Begg, says it best "If you want to know what God is doing (not did), read His Word. If you want to know the power of God, read HIs Word."
Terry, thanks for letting me vent some of my frustrations here. I hope that my comments aren't viewed as hateful comments or that if you are a Charismatic that there is something wrong with you. I believe Charismatics (as well as Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, even Catholics) make up the body of Christ. Each part has it's own function that ministers to different types of people. Again, these are just some of my conclusions in my walk thus far. And I'm nowhere near the end.
Who knew your blog would be so therapeutic?
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Some people thrive on authority. Others disdain it. It takes all kinds to make a world.
C
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ditto there...
i think i'd rather be out of the pot...
swimming in the deep blue ocean is where i was created to swim, along with all the other millions of diverse and created creatures of the sea...can you give me a claw up so i can crawl out of this thing...
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If the lobster knew that the water was going to get so hot that it would kill him, he wouldn't stay in the pot.
Our old church was birthed out of a movement that sought to be free from the doctrines of men and lo and behold became a denomination unto itself.
As such it attracts people who have a desire to go deeper and experience more—the thinkers and the rebels if you will. No matter how free the formula seems to be at the point of entry, the end result seems to be the same—a group of men controlling another group of men—and us giving them the power to do so.
The authority I am looking for is that of a friend, over lunch, telling me that he thinks I have number one: been a good friend and number two: that I might need to re-adjust my thinking in a certain area or two.
Nothing has been in vain—it just feels like it for a time until we get a perspective on it. Keep thinking and moving forward.
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You know, Terry, when I think back to my time at WCC / LWCF, I get a wierd feeling come over me and that seems to be the best way that I can describe it. I certainly enjoyed the relationships and friendships that we made during our home group fellowships. But when I think of the corporate experience, I cringe a bit. We left LWCF in 2000 and have found ourselves more comfortable in non-charismatic churches. We now attend Calvary Chapel. It's not perfect (no church is), but no one there tries to "speak" anything into our lives. If God wants me to know something, I'm pretty sure He'll just tell me. I don't want some go-between, a liason of sorts. I think it's just another way of controlling people to fit some view Christianity that they think you should be. Plus, I think it defeats what Christ did for us on the cross. Our sin no longer seperates us from God, so why try to seperate ourselves again by seeking a modern day prophet. Do I believe there are no more prophets among us - no. But I no longer want to attend a fellowship where people feel the need to "speak" things into people's lives. It makes me cringe even now.
This post may not speak to the issues you dealt with in your time there, and I don't necessarily mean for it to. It just reminded me of a very bittersweet time in our lives.
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I have been finding that idealism is threatening to a lot of people. I think that's why others felt like you were a hindrance.
Let's just never settle for anything less!
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Thanks for the encouragement—it seems I need all that I can get at this point in my journey.
I remember being so excited about you being a part of the church we both were at at that time. My mind was filled with endless possibilities of where we could go with your music and input into the process.
When is a thief not a thief? Not just when he stops stealing but when he gets a job and gives some of what he has to those who have none.
I guess even though I was in leadership at the time of your arrival and subsequent to-soon-departure, I was locked out of the decision making process and didn't even realize it until it was to late to do anything about it. My bad!
During the past few months I have come to realize that I have a passion for words and sentences that form thoughts and patterns and that at some level even seem to bring a measure of peace to my soul.
Like music, the cadence of these words beckon me to itself and in turn feels like a brush stroke across the canvas of my life at present.
There is hope. During the lowest point of my struggle at the church in mention, I was stopped in my tracks while driving, with the realization that God had created me to be what I had come to feel was a hindrance in other people's eyes. My idealism and the go-for-it let's let Steve play exuberance is more a blessing than a curse.
I am attempting to get comfortable in my skin while at the same time not thinking more highly of myself than I should. What this looks like is slowly forming as the clay of who I am is being torn down and re-sculpted.
Thanks for being a friend.
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Well, I was the complete opposite. I only lasted there for about three months, if that! I asked the wrong questions, diagnosed the problem in an unacceptable way, and became one of those that you referenced in your last post -- it was my problem that caused me to leave.
Or so I was told.
At any rate, it's not about that anymore, is it? Ded is right.
"[A]s long as [one man alone] speaks [regularly as the "teacher"], the polite and gentle people listening to him will never expect it of themselves to hear God to the depths that they might."
There seems to be an awakening to this around our nation. But it's like Rip Van Winkle waking after sooo many years.
When will the sleep finally be wiped from our collective eyes? When will the blurriness of our early morning not-quite-focused vision give way to the vivid 20-20 of God's eyesight? When will we as a body of believers get to the point where we're able to actually live it out the way it's supposed to be, and not just be weighed down by the failures we have known?
Some days, I think we're close. Other days, I'm not so sure.
Either way, I keep pressing forward, keeping my eye on the prize. I have no other choice. I must keep seeking the ideal. I must keep seeking the pure, unadulterated version of what God has for us.
And for those with whom I am sharing this journey, I give thanks to our loving Father.
You're one of those, Terry.
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First off, I have no answers that are any more valid than yours. I just have what seems to satisfy me at the moment. Plus, I'm at a very different walk in my life than you are. When I think of these questions (which is often), I mostly think of passing on values and traits (and hopefully faith) to my kids. I know that my life has been directly impacted by my parents and grandparents, and they were impacted by the actions of their ancestors. So in that sense, we live on. But I wonder if it's strictly a selfish thing that we hope that folks will remember us, as if we were something important. If we pour our lives out for others, then we will probably be remembered more than if we spent our lives focusing on being remembered. Methinks, anyways.
I'm not trying to answer your questions (Christians spend too much time trying to "fix" each other), just adding my own ponderings up to this point. Ultimately, it's our own consciouses (sp?) that we must appease. And that comes generally from our own understanding and not from other's suggestions.
Maybe I should stop typing. I make less sense the more I type.
Enjoying your blogs.
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Thanks for the encouragement to write poetry. Hmmmm...never felt very good at that one.
8^)
ded
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you have a way with words...i like it. i also love that poem of gary snyders; funny, i just read it recently
blessings-
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Ultimately, the entire earth will be filled with the joy of the Lord (or something like that)
So it all part of His plan.
It's a big kingdom out there,and a cup for every tea. Each one of us can view our cup of tea as half-full, or half-empty. The eyes of faith make it full, no matter what it looks like.
In other news, we're off to Louisiana tomorrow, to bury my mother.
Thanks for sharing the ride.
C
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Today was a stretch for me as I opened up about a "flaw" in my character or should I say a flaw I am not comfortable with. I am glad that you are still doing well and am sure I will enjoy your additions to blogland—be they mine or yours. One reason I started to blog was to try and make sense out my life surrounding our leaving the church we had attended for 22 years. Creatively I had been stopped up for so long and lo and behold "Looking for the long ride" emerged which had been on my mind for a long time. I am sure you will find your voice the more that you write. Remember that nothing is to small to warrant a few lines.
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You know, Terry, I didn't realize how much I missed being around you. You seem to ask alot of the same questions I ask, but in a more coherent way. While there are some things in the Christian faith I'm quite sure of, it seems I have alot more questions than answers.
Really enjoyed your post today. Makes me glad that I came across your blog. It feels alot like a new homegroup of sorts. A place where we can be free to say and ask what we are feeling without wondering (too much) how crazy others think we are.
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I guess that was the point as well in writing what I did—the KISS method is only available to those of us who see things as line upon line; which I do most of the time and try to keep it simple or rather try to understand simple. What I have found is that layer upon layer of experience and subsequent image impression has made it really hard to get to the truth of the matter as it pertains to me understanding what I am feeling and how to overcome when I find myself in a hard place. Certainly believing the Word is the first step. I can see why some poets use sort of a juxtaposition of images to get to a deep truth. Or at least open the lid so that we can peek inside and get a glimmer of what it all means.
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I certainly don't understand all of what you say, but I thank you for it because (and I'm quoting you here):
"I was reminded of how hard it really is for any of us to understand the other..."
And while I do not understand you, my friend, your writings nevertheless generate within me an awareness that I am not the only person in the universe dealing with these identity issues. We share that search. And we build a faith upon the words of the Master who said "You must be born again."
At the same time, we duly note with interest the words of brother Bob, who said "He not busy being born is busy dyin'..."
Thanks for sharing the ride. I would have visited you today, but didn't want to distract you from what must be some serious garden work.
C
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As always Carey, you add something to the mix. And having a degree in English is an added benefit. Keep reading, it's been lonely without you.
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Look at this quote from your latest entry:
"It is interesting to note the many words that begin with "in" and that most cause us to focus on what we are not rather than on what we are."
What is interesting here is that your predicate adjective (interesting) is itself an "in-" word. Yet it has no negative connotation.
Here are a couple of of other words that defy the negative classification usually assigned to "in-" words:
invincible (as in: "we are more than conquerors...)
independent
inoculate (to prevent destructive elements from entering)
inalienable
inaugurate
incarnate (as in: "the Word" incarnate)
incentive (now there's a positive one)
incessant (eternal...another positive)
income (we like that one, don't we?)
incomparable (we're all unique)
individual
indivisible (united we stand...)
industry (the American way)
infant (the greatest of all words)
inform (how edifying!)
ingenious
inhale (thank God for every one)
inherit (yes!)
inscribe (what I'm doing here)
interview
intimate
introduce
invent
invaluable
INSPIRE
The list goes on and on. We just got back from two weeks in Hawaii, so forgive me for being a little intense, but that's what happens when we've just returned from the place that is closest on earth to meeting the definition of PARADISE, while at the same time also presenting the closest picture of the classical conception of hell (the caldera of a volcano)
More later. Carey
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I love your frankness here: "But in church, I was told that you had to read the bible every day (the longer the better), pray a lot and take your wife out on a date night every week. I was told that there were certain conditions that applied to me and to get to where I was headed I would have to meet these conditions and move on to the next level. It was a little bit of grace mixed with a little bit of performance mixed with a little bit of who knows what—and a lot of guilt when we didn't live up to the high standards that were always being set for us.
So we kind of "flew under the radar" to coin a phrase. When asked how you were doing, you knew what to say and you knew the right words to use as well. We learned to talk "christianeese". Don't let them see you sweat, turned into don't really let them know what is really going on because if you do then there will be a price to pay."
What a sad Gospel we've delivered: 'grace, performance, who-knows-what', leading to the then necessary need to hide from one another. Sadder still, we haven't been able to tell the differance between the real Gospel, and all the psuedo-gospels that abound. (The 'other blend' gospel can ever only work for high-achievers, and the ones who suppress reality really well).
Maybe it's time we discovered what the real Gospel looks and functions like-- the one that makes true Christ-lovers and authentic God-worshippers (inotherwords, people who will willingly lay down their lives). I think it got buried about a century ago. And then we slowly moved into mega-individualism, adding all the more to our spiritual confusion (or--creating the perfect recipe for audience-driven superficial spirituality).
I've discovered our problems aren't just lack of relational reality. They actually stem from lack of reality with the Real Gospel. Now--you want to sign up for a Real Ride? (Hopefully it's the one you're already pursuing). Go after the Real Gospel, for all you're worth.
And don't stop, until you're facing Christ, and yourself.
That's when the fun will begin.
(John 14 & 15)
Blessings! Nj
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One of the things I have learned outside of the IC is that a general prescription delivered as a sermon will only go so far. There are some patterns to human behavior, so addressing these for a large group of people appears logical. Yet...to walk in the spirit of the living God is a highly individual thing, since we are all individuals before God, and He in His wisdom and grace receives us exactly where we are, loves us unconditionally, and teaches us specific to who we are as individuals.
How are we the same? love, hate, jealousy, envy, anger, greed, lust, the Cross and Resurrection, the work of grace, and here we diverge. The grace I need is the same grace you need but will be applied and make sense at a very individual level. Christian existentialism? We must individually wash in the blood and walk in the spirit learning what it takes for us to be personally responsible before God; and from there learn a place of communion with one another.
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Terry,
Well said. It's good to have you as part of this ongoing "conversation". I look forward to reading more about your journey.
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speaking of whiners...we do become that which we judge...just wondering if maybe there is some inner repentance maybe towards other whiners?...lol...as funny as it sounds...its a good question.
I see the process is very much at work...its a good thing.
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Just wanted to say I hear you. Been through many similar thoughts, more often in the first few years out of IC, than now. Melody's comment is truth...being tied to the dock is not being fully anchored in Christ, though it will say of itself that such is the case. The assumption that one must be tied to the dock to have fellowship is a false assumption, but those who don't want to leave the dock for whatever reason will insist such is true. Bless 'em. We will each be held accountable for what we have done with what we received.
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"Now I know in my life this dock was once the church or what I thought the church was supposed to be"...
this is the trap...we secure ourselves to the dock, it resembles Christ at some level, but the securing needs not be to the dock, but to Christ. We are the church, so to anchor to ourselves is in sense a vanity as we are all in process of becomming more like Jesus...He alone is the anchor of our souls. This is the work of our salvation that the Lord is perfecting, that we cut loose the cords that bind our hearts of security, identity, destiny and purpose to anything that we would secure ourselves to outside of Him alone.
I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You
All about You, Jesus
I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made it
When it's all about You
All about You, Jesus
It really is all about Him.
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Thanks for the kind words. The Farmer's Marekt site looks really good...I am impressed. I hope that you guys have the best year ever.
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Terry,
It was great to discover your blog via Sandi's site which has sent us a bit of traffic.
I gotta have my truck, it is always the newest Nissan I can afford, maybe short on personality but it gets the job done. Gotta have a camper top too, although that does get in the way from time to time and it is too heavy to take off much.
Keep up the great posts!
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How about in the new man? Is the dross gone there? If so, then just deciding to be who we are IN Christ instead of eating dross, as if it had any life, should take care of that issue...or so me-thinks.
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Carey, you are the man. Hopefully all our dross is gone...but I think not. What's the going rate for wood, hay and stubble. Not much I would guess. But your friendship is pure gold. Thanks.
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"In a strange way, fires bring simplicity into our lives"
a profound statement from my friend Terry Henry.
Here's another one: "growing in God and allowing him to develop our character is really what life is all about—"
Keep up the good work.
...and faith is the substance of things not seen, or something like that.
C
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I have your same fear of mediocratey and whether that is nature or nurture dervived I know not - maybe a little of both. I think part of that is from the Lord, although the devil wants to twist it and make it his, it was put there by the Lord so that we are always stepping forward, always working to be our best. All of us have an intristic value but what we do with that and how we step forward is a choice - aka the road to which all of us forge for ourselves.
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I agree with the mile marker analogy. I will probably never belong to an "official" tribe again. Such are always artificial in some way. I belong to the Chuch at Boone, a very large, very splintered and diverse but unofficial tribe. Nonetheless, it is a tribe. Within in it, we find ourselves building relationships with any Christian sibling in an emotional position to be willing to do so.
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Well, I did have a good (bicycle) ride, today, to the high school, where I worked as a substitute teacher in science classes where I learned about tectonic plates and DNA.
Then I came home, and found myself thoroughly inspired by two LFTLR entries, to which I respond:
I'm glad that, in your transparent midlife crisis entry, you ended up talking about the four human beings (the offspring) who are evidence of your personal significance and uniquity as an individual, grain of sand in the universe, father, husband, child of God, elder at the gate...all of those things that you are.
Your musings remind me of the exchange that MUST have taken place at the THE EAGLE AND THE CHILD, a pub that we went to in Oxford, England. It's a place where JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis used to get together and talk about life. What we're doing with this blogging thing is a little like that, only this is 2007 version, online. Althought we HAVE share many moments in this precious life face to face, and will again...
Keep your wheels spinning, my friend, you long ride progressing. Your shared experiences are supremely inspirational to me and, I'm sure, to others as well.
And, though I mention your legacy of four wonderful human beings as a source of significance, I don't want to imply that that is the only one that you manifest. The open book of your life is a true testimony to the transforming power of Christ in all of us.
Keep up the good work.
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1. "God was never going to be done with me..." I like this, and actually, it's for eternity. By the time we get it sorted out in this life where we're supposed to be...he takes us into eternity, where we don't deal with that any more.
But not too soon, we hope!!
2."generally I don't sing when I play an instrument" I'm quoting you, and I respectfully disagree. I've seen evidence to the contrary many times, if you consider a guitar to be an instrument.
3. I'm thankful to have shared many mile markers with you. May there be many more.
4. We may not be in the same tribe any more, but we're in the same kingdom.
5. The King orders all things, whether we realize it or not. And we choose daily to be a part of his work.
Love, Carey
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I realized this morning that in comments that I posted yesterday in response to "Romantic" I was using the word "oxymoron" where I had intended to write "paradox."
Hence: I't a paradox (not an oxymoron) that the omnipotent God hung upon a cross.
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I just reread your last paragraph. I realized what I wrote and what you wrote are very similar. Cool.
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1. Here's a quote from you:
"The group had a lot of truth but were way off in certain other areas of doctrine.:
My thought: I think this is a contradiction, not an oxymoron; therefore the second part of the statement is true...they were off in their...(everything.)
2.Another quote from you: "We are told as children to just be happy with what we have. Yet within us is that thing which tells us that we will only be happy if we have something that we don't already posess." My thought: Life is full of contradictions. That's why the omnipotent God hung on a cross.
3. Here's the best quote from your latest column: "I think community is an itch that God created."
And I agree. No contradiction there.
Love, Carey
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Maybe it is a little like, "the man who seeks to find his life shall lose it, and he who seeks to lose his life shall gain it."
If we work to create the ideal, we are focused on what isn't and we find our focus.
If we live working to love others, we are focused on what is, the others around us, and we find what we were not seeking.
Maybe we should stop trying to get it right...to make it be...to make it happen. Since His work is completed, let's just live our completed lives together.
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Terry,
You stayed longer than us both overall, and well beyond our stay. When my wife and I had left, she had been there 20 years and I, 18. It was the only real church home I had known; though I had attended a denominational church a few years in high school, I had never belonged anywhere but in the organization you mention. The issue of authority you describe is exactly the issue that separated our family from the group. Since then I have thought over the role and function of authority for nearly ten years. I have come to a position which enjoys little favor in the hearts of folks who expect systems to work for them.
1. In modern America we know very little of the authority God intended.
2. It is never an office. Though someone who walks in Godly authority may in fact dwell within an identified position of oversight for some group of persons, no one has authority of an office conferred upon them by a group of people which is the authority of God. Conferrence or recognized authority standing on the aproval of men is not part of God's plan.
3. Even just accepting one man to be the core speaker and thus the basis of a group's collective teaching, understanding, journey...fails God's plan.
I recently visited a very sweet fellowship of believers. Though the man speaking is intensely sincere and full of integrity, the fact that he controls a pulpit fails the needs of that group. This man would be more of a support to this group, if he left for two-three weeks at a time and let the group discover its identity in Christ without him. He could return often and lend a listening ear and support. This would be good. But as long as he speaks, the polite and gentle people listening to him will never expect it of themselves to hear God to the depths that they might.
At least, so I think, which may mean very little.
Love in Jesus,
ded
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I do wish you both the very best as you seek "the real thing". If we can be of any encouragement, or of any help, please let us know!
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Those were the best of times and the worst of times. Remember the snow that blew in from the cracks in the house and the black snake that showed up in unusual places, and the isolation which was pretty lonely at times. It was an adventure, but I would rather be here, with a house that is finally big enough now that a few of the kids have moved out and the hope of a church family that is the real thing. Yesterday was good but today is where we live. Lets look for and enjoy the blessings of the Lord for that is where we will find what we are truely looking for.
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Following that whole "out of the box" mindset, I came upon this quote the other day and it struck a chord with me, it may carry a slight negative connotation in the eyes of a some.
"The prison (box)has no walls. It has only lines. Lines that mark the ground around you. Inside the lines are your old ideas. Outside are new ideas that invite you to step over and escape your prison.
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Terry, it was great running into you at Lowe's today. You and I are on similar journeys, and you might enjoy the fellowship that takes place over at my blog, too.
I've already added your blog and comments to my Bloglines reader so I can keep up with your writing here.
I may be back to comment every now and then, too
Blessings on you as you seek more and more in your relationship with Jesus. He is what unifies us.
steve
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now thats just a plain good blog!
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wow...life measured out by coffee spoons...that was a frightful thing to read knowing where i have come from!!! that could say alot from my perspective, ick...cage of control, feeling somewhat lost...interesting concept...i can relate to that as well...yet in our seasons of being 'out of the box' in our life, even as destructive as they have been sometimes,i dont think we are lost, we just have so many pastures that we can graze from now instead of being stuck in that overrun overgrazed mudridden winter paddock, we just dont know where to start...it can feel a little overwhelming...and guilty at the same time...i mean think about it, how many of us ever get out of that control box completely, and find ourselves in lush pasture...knowing the mudfield is just behind us...dont know about you, but i think wisdom says we count it all as joy and press onward to the green! melody
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Well...after driving 6 hours, passing so many walmarts with parking lots so full, and listening on the radio to every version of 'what child is this'...i too, wonder, where are we?...do we toss the gift giving and all and stay securly focused on Jesus...or is possible to celebrate this pagan 'thing' and still be a faithful follower of Christ...something I am still pondering on and searching, and trying not to feel guilty about either...all in all...the idea of giving once a year, its a good thing...just this week i was able to make a commitement of giving of self to a family member...so, it this once a year pagan event inspires to give more, be more, seek truth more...can't be all that bad...can it?...the main thing, just gotta be true to 'truth'...LOVE...thats as true as it comes...thats been my ride this week...
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